Ryan Millsap, Chairman & CEO of Atlanta-based Blackhall Studios, is one of today’s top entertainment executives! With a vision for Blackhall that’s ambitious, energizing and boundless, Millsap is blazing a trail through the heart of the South – and setting his sights on the future of entertainment. Listen and learn as Ryan Millsap journeys through the myriad industries, people and landscapes that traverse the complex and dynamic world of film production.
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Ryan: So, we are lucky enough to have Rodney Ho of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution here with us today, which is a treat for me. Rodney has actually interviewed me as a journalist, and I've never actually gotten to interview a journalist. So, I suppose the first question I should ask is: as an interviewer, what should I ask you?
Rodney: I'm not that type of guy. I don't really care. Ask me whatever you want.
Ryan: Well, tell me -- where did your passion for reporting come from?
Rodney: I think I'm just a nosy person. I'm curious. I guess curious; that’s the positive term for nosy, right? I was just always interested in a lot of different things, and I tended to ask a lot of questions. I had an English teacher in high school who inspired me. And, somehow, I decided to just keep on doing it. 30 years later, here I am.
Ryan: Are you particularly curious about other human beings, or more curious about ideas and things?
Rodney: Good question. A little bit of both. I think it just depends on what the topic is. I mean, there are certain things that I'm more interested in than others, but yeah, I'm always just looking for a good story.
Ryan: Well, when you said nosy, it made me think of other human beings.
Rodney: Gossip, right.
Ryan: So, when we think of somebody as nosy -- it's more like they want to know the inside scoop, or the dirt on other humans, whereas we would never call somebody nosy because they wanted to try to understand the physics of the universe.
Rodney: That's true. I think I enjoy both. that's probably why entertainment is fascinating. I was a business reporter, and I have an MBA, so I also am fascinated by the mechanics of money, and how things flow, and why things happen. Thus, the tax credits in this state are fascinating to talk about, and how that has changed the state.
Ryan: So, you're curious about that. I have a whole bunch of things I want to ask you about -- things and ideas. Tell me some of the places where you are nosy. Like what people interest you? What gossip interests you?
Rodney: I mean, I cover local radio and TV, and it's fascinating. I enjoy talking to entertainers; I respect them. I don't have that level of ego and sensitivity. But it's fascinating to see how, you know, radio people are not necessarily people who are in front of a camera, but they like the sound of their voice, and there's a level of importance there. And it's fascinating -- the interplay among radio deejays, and chemistry. All those things are fascinating to me.
And of course, I love reality TV. I love reality competition shows, and the dynamics that work at play there as well. Even The Real Housewives. I mean, I've been covering Real Housewives since they began in 2008. And you kind of hate and love those ladies at the same time. They're willing to put themselves out there and do ridiculous stuff, and they're getting paid to do it at the same time. So, sometimes they hate each other. And in normal circumstances, these people would never hang out together, but they're forced to by money -- like, you're paid. It's kind of like employees. You're paid to have to hang out with these people. But in these cases, unlike you -- let's say you work with your colleagues. In this case, you're working with people. You have to go to parties with them, and gossip. It's weird. Gossip is their job. It's a fascinating dynamic.
Ryan: Well, so one of the things that strikes me about what you just explained is the amount of interaction you've had with people who have very high-profile positions, mostly social -- right? Big, high profile social positions. Actors, famous reality TV stars, famous deejays.
Rodney: Yeah.
Ryan: What have you learned by being curious and observant about ego? Like, you mentioned the word ego. Tell me some of the things that you've seen about ego. The good, the bad, the ugly. Just observational.
Rodney: I mean, some people are very, very sensitive on certain topics. We all have our points -- and usually our spouses, or people like that, know what to pick at. If you hit somebody’s soft point -- it could be their age, it could be their hair, it could be anything; even trivial in your mind, but important to them. How they treat women. There are certain things that just get certain people super upset. And even if you're writing something factual, or you quote somebody, they'll blame you. I'm the carrier of bad news. So I've learned that if a radio station is doing poorly, and I keep mentioning that in a story, they'll think I hate them, when I'm just simply stating a fact. But that's kind of how people roll, especially when things are going bad.
And it's interesting, as you know; you're a businessman. You know that when things are going well, people get along. There's no conflict -- and you try to build people up in those situations. Hopefully you have some bank -- you know, something in the bank, so that when things go bad, they will still be willing to talk to you, or still willing to work with you. So you kind of have to build up a bank of goodwill, I guess. And even as a reporter, you do that as well, you know? If I write a flattering story about you in hopes that, if you do something horrible -- which hopefully you never do -- you'll still talk to me in those situations rather than think, “Oh, this guy's just there to get dirt on me.” You know?
Ryan: Well, 100%, you find out the truth about your relationships in hard times.
Rodney: That is true. Who will call you back after a scandal happens? Or if you get divorced, who's going to be your friend, or whatnot? Yeah. You're right.
Ryan: You know, a deal goes poorly, and you find out the truth of other people's character.
Rodney: That's true. When things are down.
Ryan: And you find out the truth of your own character. Very true. And then at the same time, when things go really, really well, success and money is oftentimes an exponent on a person's character.
Rodney: It will either aggrandize an ego or... you know. It's funny; the most successful people are often the ones that show the most humility, and are often the nicest. It's the people who have struggled. I remember interviewing Dustin Diamond, who was Screech, and the guy came across as just an arrogant jerk. And you're thinking, “Why has he earned that?” I mean, it's weird. Sometimes it's people on the way up, or on the way down, who are really problematic. And often the people who stay on top -- the people like a Dwayne Johnson or Kevin Hart -- they're super nice, you know?
Ryan: Right.
Rodney: Like Jeff Foxworthy. This guy knows my name. He's local, and he treats me with respect. That's what you hope to get. And then, often, the most successful people are there for that very reason. They're not jerks. Of course, there are exceptions.
Ryan: Yeah. They might be the most authentic. And maybe they've even come to terms with their own ego. Or dealt with their own ego in a way that allows it to not drive the train. And you see people on the way up -- oftentimes, they might be really ego-driven.
Rodney: And they're insecure, too, because they're worried that it might get stopped some way, or that they have to keep a certain persona, or else everything's going to just disappear. So they have that kind of drive. But once they reach a certain level of success -- and oftentimes the ones who reach a certain level of success in their 30s or 40s are the ones that are the probably the most... you know, they kind of have a perspective on the world.
Ryan: Because you feel like they had to work for it.
Rodney: Yeah, like Ricky Gervais. I mean, he was just a normal guy, and nobody knew who he was until he was 35 or 40. And often those are the folks. Sometimes it's the child stars that often are the most warped, because they never knew anything but fame.
Ryan: Ricky is a good example. Do you think, with Ricky, that all of that is on some level intellectual arrogance? Is that just a show, or do you think that's actually a reflection of his ego expression?
Rodney: It’s a show. I think he's a softie at heart. He seems like, anything he says, it's hard to take it seriously. I mean, he goes on the Golden Globes and insults people, but it's like Jeff Ross. He's just doing it. There's no animus.
Ryan: It's a schtick.
Rodney: It’s a schtick. Yeah. And it's okay. I think that's why the Golden Globes like him -- because they know he's making jokes. Deep down, they're jokes.
Ryan: Just jokes. Let it go. On to the next.
Rodney: I mean, there's a woman named Monique. There's some serious issues with her. There's anger, and there's resentment. If you're going to alienate Tyler Perry, Oprah Winfrey, and Lee Daniels, clearly you're doing something a little bit off, and that that's an ego-driven problem right there.
Ryan: Well, you know, I think we all have had ego driven problems in our lives. And we're smart. We learn from that. But I think the hardest lessons are the ones that we learn when our ego is injured. So, what I just heard you describe is -- I don't know Monique. I don't know anything really about her or her life.
Rodney: She won an Oscar, and I think there were some issues with her not promoting the movie properly. And she still won the Oscar. I think she got a lesson out of that. Like, “I don't need to play by the rules, so to speak, and people treat me a certain way.” And if they don't give me a certain amount of money -- she sued Netflix. She didn't feel like they gave her enough money for a comedy special. So she sued them.
Ryan: But she did the comedy special?
Rodney: No, she didn't. She said, “It only offered me 250,000. They gave Chappelle 20 million. I should get comparable.” Maybe not 20 million, but in her mind, she feels like she's being discriminated against.
Ryan: Even though she didn't take the job, and Netflix didn't give her the job.
Rodney: Right.
Ryan: Interesting.
Rodney: Yeah. And maybe she could have negotiated a higher deal instead of complaining about it. I don't know.
Ryan: Right. Well, I mean, that's a perfect example of what we're talking about here, which is ego run amuck, and ego injured. And the way that we maybe act as our worst selves in the times that our egos feel agony.
Rodney: I mean, you're in an interesting position, because you're building up right now. You're in a sensitive spot where, if something goes south, how are you going to react? If a deal falls apart?
Ryan: Trust me. When you're an entrepreneur, you live in this space where you have to come to terms with the fact that if it all works, you're not a genius. And if it all fails, you're not an idiot.
Rodney: Right.
Ryan: You're just a guy trying to do something interesting. Now, other people are going to call you a genius if it works and it's huge. Other people are going to call you an idiot, or maybe worse, if it doesn't go right.
Rodney: Yeah, and we like to build people up and then knock them down. It's kind of... you know, you’re watching politics. Candidates get built up; they get knocked down. And we as reporters are trying to come up with narratives -- interesting narratives. Calling people a hero or a genius. “You're Bill Gates. You're the next Bill Gates.” Whatever it is that makes a great storyline, or makes a great cover on a magazine. But like you said, the reality is, everybody's human. And Bill Gates has his faults, certainly. They've come out; they've done movies. So you know that he's... you know.
Ryan: I guarantee you, Melinda can tell you what they are.
Rodney: Yeah. Fair enough.
Ryan: And Bill can tell you what Melinda’s are. And if they've lived together this long, and they get along well, and they have a happy marriage...
Rodney: ...They accept each other.
Ryan: Yeah, they accept each other -- and probably, in the best way, push each other to grow. Grow beyond their worst selves.
Rodney: Plus block out all the noise, which is the media coverage or the social media commentary -- which is what you probably need to do if you're going to really succeed. Not buy into, you know, “I'm the next Messiah.” “You're going to be the next real estate, mogul.”
Ryan: Yeah. I've had friends of mine tell me -- because this conversation about ego has been central in my life -- they've said ego is what makes me successful. It's what drives me forward to try to achieve great things. And I just don't know if that's actually the case. I think that the ego that we think is driving us might actually be holding us back, because we might accomplish huge things in spite of our ego. And the real question is, how much more might we accomplish if we can let go of our ego?
Rodney: That's fascinating.
Ryan: I think it's a fascinating exploration.
Rodney: And it may just be how you define what an ego is, ultimately.
Ryan: Do you have any...?
Rodney: I don’t know. I guess it could be a lot of different things, right? I mean, you could just be who you are. Or is it that evil thing that's telling you to do stuff that you shouldn't be doing? I don't know... or is it? It just depends, I think, on context. On what you mean by “you.”
Ryan: Well, let's ask the first question. You said ego might be who I actually am. Who are you, actually?
Rodney: Ask a therapist; I don't know.
Ryan: Right? Well, let's go down to the very best things. Like, think about your very best characteristics. Your very best self. Would you think of that as ego, or would you think of that as soul?
Rodney: Interesting term. Yeah; you're right. I guess the word ego almost has a negative connotation, doesn't it?
Ryan: I think it has to. It feels like an overlay on the soul.
Rodney: Yes.
Ryan: Right. Because if you live into your best self, then you're living into your deepest, soulful self. There doesn't seem to be any vice associated with that.
Rodney: That's true. I mean, when you think about your soul -- that's where the love lays. That's where the caring, the empathy -- hopefully, all that is laid down in your soul.
Ryan: The beautiful things.
Rodney: Yeah. I guess people say, “You're a soulful singer.” They don't say, “You're an egotistical singer.” And it's funny how, oftentimes, you'll see a pageant singer who's singing clinically. Maybe that's just because they're singing it with no soul, right? They’ve got the lyrics, and they know the rhythm, but you don't feel anything -- right? It's interesting. And oftentimes, that's the insult that Simon Cowell would say: “That's like a pageant performance.” That's, like, the worst insult ever.
Ryan: Well, think about one of the worst insults that we say about people who are vapid. We say, “God, that person is soulless.”
Rodney: Oh, that hurts. Yes. Would that hurt you, if somebody said that about you? That would hurt me.
Ryan: Yeah, that'd be the worst. Hopefully that’d wake you up, if somebody ever called you soulless. Like, “This person is soulless.” Ouch.
Rodney: Yeah. That's pretty much it; you're right. And that shows you the value of a soul. In fact, it's probably more painful than if somebody just called me an egomaniac.
Ryan: And oftentimes those might go together.
Rodney: That's true.
Ryan: Right. It wouldn't be uncommon for somebody to say, “God, that guy's a soulless egomaniac.”
Rodney: Wow. That's a double insult, right?
Ryan: Right. So, I don't know; we might be solving something here -- that the soul sits at the base with all the beautiful, good things...
Rodney: Yes. Your spirit.
Ryan: And then the ego is overlaying all the vicious things.
Rodney: That's true. Or perhaps overseeing it. Or possibly either controlling it, or deciding whether you go to your dark side or not. Because you have a moral fiber, and everybody makes choices. You have choices every day: whether you're going to run a red light, or insult somebody who annoys you, or whatnot. You know, it's a lot of things you could do to make the world worse, right?
Ryan: I would guess that every time you do something that later you regret, you could trace it to some sort of either ego greed; ego fear; ego pain. Right? Ego response.
Rodney: Oh, there's no doubt. Sometimes, if I get defensive -- if somebody goes after me for covering something that I thought was totally okay -- I can get defensive, and that's my ego talking. And if I acknowledge I made a mistake, or if I feel like, “Okay, I understand your point of view --” that's me letting my ego sort of sit aside and, like you said, accept it.
There was a situation just last week. Somebody died, and I wrote a piece about it, but I hadn't contacted the family, which I should have. And the family was kind of upset about it. I took it down, because he's not that famous, and it wasn't that big a deal. But I just acknowledged, “Okay, I should have... you know.” I did contact a family member. They didn’t get back to me. And I just wrote it, because it was just a bunch of nice people saying nice things about them. I didn't think they would care, but they hadn't written their obit yet, or something. They wanted to wait until their obit was out. I was like, “Okay, I made a mistake.” I could have gotten really defensive. I could have said, “He's a public figure; I can write whatever the heck I want. Screw you.”
Ryan: And instead, you stayed humble.
Rodney: Yeah. And that smoothed things over. Plus, my boss was involved. You know, part of it is ego driven. Because I don't want to mess up with my boss, either. Right? I want to make sure my boss stays happy.
Ryan: How have you become so self-aware?
Rodney: So much therapy.
Ryan: Is it therapy? Spiritual practice? What have you done? Because I think, being a reporter, you have to be able to set your ego aside. You have to be able to focus on the facts. You have to be able to separate yourself and all your own desires, necessarily, from what you're going to report on. But then, when you're dealing with all these other human beings, you're going to constantly be -- like what you just described -- pushed and pulled.
Rodney: And I forget sometimes that what I'm writing may have some impact; especially in an obit. You realize when you're writing somebody’s obit -- this is something that a lot of the family members really... you know, they know this person a lot better than I do. You hope you're at least giving some level of reflection of who they are. And if you don't, you could mess up their... you know, they're already in a stressful situation. You don't want to make it even worse for them without meaning to. But sometimes you do.
Ryan: But at least you're approaching it with compassion.
Rodney: Yeah, that's the hope. At least you're approaching it -- you're not just writing it because it's salacious, or something. And that's not usually the intention of most obits.
Ryan: So, wonderful amounts of therapy. What else? I mean, what else do you do to center your soul such that you can be self-aware?
Rodney: I love taking walks with my dog and just being in nature. I'm not deeply religious, but I believe in a higher power. So there's a lot of prayer, and just a lot of thinking. I mean, I probably spend too much time in my head sometimes; that's why I guess a therapist is helpful. You can just get it out of your head and out into the world.
Ryan: Whatever you're doing, it seems like it's working. I mean, I can feel your soulfulness. I'm sure everybody can feel your soulfulness through your voice.
Rodney: I mean, I just got through a second divorce, so I've been through a lot on that front.
Ryan: Well, that will definitely drive you deep into your soul -- or drive you deep into your ego. One or the other.
Rodney: A little bit of both. It makes you... not necessarily self-reflective. Sometimes almost to the point that you annoy your friends. Like, “can you stop talking about that?” So you have to kind of check yourself. And that's sometimes why therapists -- they’re being paid to listen to you kvetch. Like, your friends can take only so much of your kvetching, you know?
Ryan: Well, the best ones can take all of it.
Rodney: That's true. I have a couple of close friends who can take it. And it's a fair trade. I mean, somebody who has similar issues to you -- you let them kvetch for a while; you kvetch back. And as long as it's a fair trade, it's okay.
Ryan: Well, what a gift. I mean, I have those people in my life.
Rodney: By the way, I'm from Long Island, and I hung around a lot of Jewish people, so the word ‘kvetch’ came out. I don't know why.
Ryan: Well, the good news is that all that Yiddish has made it so deeply into American culture. All of us understand what you mean. Alright, let's take a step back to the entertainment industry in Georgia.
Rodney: I saw you at the Rotary a couple weeks ago. You gave a great talk about it. It was fascinating to hear your thought process because you've been in it. How long have you been in this entertainment world now?
Ryan: Four years.
Rodney: Oh, yeah. You're a newbie.
Ryan: Yeah, I've absorbed it all as quickly as I possibly can. I'm coming from a totally different space, and there's sometimes a huge advantage to being an outsider. Popping in, being able to see things with fresh eyes. Make new decisions that are not based on historical norms.
Rodney: It's the same as a reporter. Sometimes they have us switch beats on purpose, because sometimes somebody coming new to a topic will come up with new story ideas. I think, sometimes, there are story ideas that other reporters will bring up, and I'm like, “oh, that's a great idea. How come I didn't think of it?” It's because I've been covering it too long. It didn't seem new to me. So it's helpful to have new faces come in.
Ryan: What are some of the changes you've seen over the last -- you know, the tax credit is now 12 years old.
Rodney: Yeah.
Ryan: Right. Pinewood is now six years old. With the amount of change that's happened over the last 12... six years, I mean.
Rodney: It's been astounding. It’s from nothing. I mean, really, there wasn't much here in 2008. There really wasn't much at all. There were no studios. People would occasionally do a movie here and there. That was it; there really wasn't much to cover. You had Turner Studios; you had a couple. That was pretty much it.
Ryan: What have you seen in the last six years since Pinewood opened -- since Marvel came? Can you tell me about that explosion, and what your life's been like the last six years?
Rodney: We had somebody else covering a lot of the Avengers and Marvel stuff for a time. Now I have to sort of keep an eye on that stuff. Tracking all the studios, and what everybody's up to, has become a steady job. Just last night, I checked the film office. There's a new Bruce Willis movie coming. There's a new movie with John Cena and Lil Rel coming. And those just popped up. So there's always something happening. I don't know if any of them are coming to your studio.
Ryan: We have a lot of really cool stuff coming in to our studio.
Rodney: Oh yeah, it looks like things are pretty busy. It doesn't seem like there's any sign of... you know, there's plenty. I guess you're the one who brought up that there's demand. There's so much content demand; and there’s only so many studios. And you showed that we're now competitive with Toronto, Vancouver and New York; that LA is the only one that has significantly more studios than we do. We're pretty much on par with the UK and Toronto.
Ryan: Well, yes -- infrastructure-wise.
Rodney: And we have the newest infrastructure here, because we’re so recent.
Ryan: It’s all six years old.
Rodney: Yeah. Nothing is older. I think really the only one that's older than 8 or 9 years is EUE/Screen Gems. They're the only ones that have been around for ten years.
Ryan: Well, what's that other one -- there's two stages out in Paulding County. Do you know about those?
Rodney: I'm not even sure.
Ryan: There are these two stages that were built by Paulding County, I think, in 2008-9. Right after the tax credit. These guys were on the forefront.
Rodney: Where is Paulding? Is it way out west?
Ryan: It's way out west, which is not that far out.
Rodney: Yeah, I think I did go out there once for a TV show, but that was like 4 or 5 years ago.
Ryan: You know who lives out there now? The Rock.
Rodney: Yeah. He lives in Powder Springs.
Ryan: Powder Springs, which is really, really close to where Paulding County Studios, these two little stages, sit.
Rodney: Yeah, but he’s working out of Metro right now. He's got two projects. He's got ‘Red Notice,’ and he's shooting his ‘Titan Games’ -- NBC Titan Games. They're all at the same time, which makes sense. He may as well have his movie and his reality show in the same place. They can go back and forth.
Ryan: Yeah. You know, they wanted to shoot that at Blackhall. We didn't have any space. We're 100% full for the next two years.
Rodney: Wow. That makes your life easy.
Ryan: Well, I mean, except for the fact that I hate losing all that business.
Rodney: Yeah, you have to say no to a lot of people, right? Every day. I'm sure people are calling you all the time and saying, “Do you have any space in 2021?”
Ryan: Unbelievable. It's so painful when you get those calls. They say, “We want to be at Blackhall. Do you have space for us?”
Rodney: “We can commit to eight months, nine months.” And you're like, “Oh.”
Ryan: I'm like, “I'd love that. But...”
Rodney: So, do you end up having to pass along names of other studios all the time?
Ryan: That’s what happens. But these guys know. I mean, there's only a handful of studios in the city...
Rodney: ...that could handle a lot of the big ones. Yeah. There's like maybe 5 or 6 that have enough stage space.
Ryan: They've got their list. They're like, “I want to be here. If I can't be here, then I want to be here. If I can't be here. I want to be here.” You know? They just go down the waterfall. So we've been trying to build extra space to accommodate for that, but it's been a little bit of a struggle because we've been working through some land swap issues. So that's delayed our build in Georgia. We did just announce today -- I think you mentioned it to me.
Rodney: The BBC news?
Ryan: Yeah. The BBC news story about the London Blackhall.
Rodney: And is that a guarantee at this point, or still just being... where are you, at this point?
Ryan: No, I mean, we've been working on that deal for a year.
Rodney: Okay.
Ryan: So, we finally got the deal done with the University of Reading.
Rodney: The contracts are signed. So you're able to release it out?
Ryan: Correct. That's why, finally, we could do a big release.
Rodney: Gotcha. I need to write about that now.
Ryan: It's I mean, it's a pretty big story, in the sense that London hasn’t been able to build any stage space because they're so land-constrained.
Rodney: Yes.
Ryan: It's one of the reasons why Atlanta's been able to explode.
Rodney: Exactly.
Ryan: Right. Well, we're running out of time. But I really appreciate you coming today. It's wonderful to get to sit and talk to you. I appreciate being so open about ego things.
Rodney: Yeah, that kind of thing. I didn't know where this conversation was going, but that's fine.
Ryan: Well, that's the whole point, right? These conversations are about getting to know people that have different perspectives on life -- that have had different life experiences -- and not just focus on all the expertise you have in journalism, but what that career path has done for your soul.
Rodney: And I get to meet all sorts of different people. I have a lot of gratitude for being in a newspaper in 2020. There’s not many of these jobs around left. So I'm deeply appreciative of my bosses, and that they're still willing to give me work. And of course, the tax credits have helped me. You know, I'm a beneficiary of the tax credits, too -- even though I don't get them. The fact that they're here, and that there's all this business, keeps me writing about stuff I really enjoy.
Ryan: If anybody wants to get in touch with you, do you have social media?
Rodney: Oh, yeah. I'm @AJCRodneyHo -- I think that's my Twitter, Instagram. And also, AJC Radio and TV Talk is my Facebook. And you can find me -- Rodney Ho -- you can just Google me, and you'll find my blog. It's not hard to find what's going around.
Ryan: Rodney, thank you for being here. This has been wonderful.
Rodney: Alright. Thank you, Ryan, and good luck with your operations in London. And I know you're searching for other cities too, right?
Ryan: We are. Yeah, we're working really hard.
Rodney: Good luck.
Ryan: Thank you.
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Thanks for listening to the Blackhall Studios podcast with Ryan Millsap. We want to hear from you! Find us on SoundCloud, iTunes or Spotify, and follow us on Instagram at @Ryan.Millsap.
