Ryan Millsap Goes Deep with Clifford "T.I." Harris - PART 2

Ryan Millsap, Chairman & CEO of Atlanta-based Blackhall Studios, is one of today’s top entertainment executives! With a vision for Blackhall that’s ambitious, energizing and boundless, Millsap is blazing a trail through the heart of the South – and setting his sights on the future of entertainment. Listen and learn as Ryan Millsap journeys through the myriad industries, people and landscapes that traverse the complex and dynamic world of film production.

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T.I.: The stepping toilet seat lifter? Fucking genius. Okay. Yeah. Fucking genius, bro. Who in the fuck thought of it? Who did that?

Ryan: It's funny you say that, because we actually had him on the podcast.

T.I.: Yo, that shit is genius.

Ryan: Yeah. He’s fantastic.

T.I.: I've never seen it. And I’ve got fancy ones, even, at my house. You know, you push a button, and it raises. But to just have a simple ‘boop’ and step and lift? That’s fucking genius.

Ryan: It's called the Hopper Popper.

T.I.: The Hopper Popper.

Ryan: It's made by a guy named Matt Baxter.

T.I.: Is he public?

Ryan: He's not. He's trying to figure it out. Right now, he's raising money.

T.I.: Good. Perfect timing. Where can I meet this guy?

Ryan: I can definitely make that happen.

T.I.: Yeah. That’s an ingenious idea. I was just thinking, while I was in there — the ‘Sani-Handle.’

Ryan: The Sani-Handle?

T.I.: Yeah. So, think about it, right? You go into a truck stop; you go into a gas station; you go into places where people done pissed all over the seats. It's just nasty — you know what I'm saying? Women have to squat over the toilet. If they had a handle, so that they could hold themselves up a little bit, and didn't have to — because some people are a little... you know. Gravity begins to catch up with them. They have to sit down out of sheer necessity.

Ryan: Because they couldn't hold themselves up.

T.I.: If you had a handle, it could help you. Give you a little boost.

Ryan: A little leverage.

T.I.: It could be a handle here, and little bar there — you know what I’m saying?

Ryan: The Sani-Handle.

T.I.: The Sani-Handle. Hey, listen; I was here at the point of conception.

Ryan: Of the Sani-Handle. I will tell Matt Baxter. If he wants to develop the Sani-Handle to go along with the Hopper Popper, you’d get a piece of it.

T.I.: A piece of both in perpetuity.

Ryan: Yeah. We did a podcast where I asked him a lot of questions about this exact thing. Like, where do you come up with this idea? How has this not ever existed? Why are we all touching toilet seats?

T.I.: Who the fuck wants to touch a toilet seat at a time like now?

Ryan: God, when you hear all the statistics? He talks about germs. You just don't want to touch a toilet seat.

T.I.: I ain’t really bothered. Germs don't bother me.

Ryan: Well, our bodies are meant to fight them.

T.I.: I mean, yeah — fecal matter and urine, though? That fucking freaks me out.

Ryan: Well, that's what he talks about. He talks about when you flush a toilet — the stuff spins and flies out.

T.I.: Man. Yeah. You know what? In prison, some of the Islamic guys — they would not use the urinals because they’d say it splashes back.

Ryan: I would say they're not wrong.

T.I.: I’d say, “You’re up too close on that thing.” You’ve gotta stand back that far, see?

Ryan: Well, the water's cold, but I still use it. Okay. So, all of this is motivated by survival and imagination. No anger?

T.I.: I will never be an angry man. I began to become, I guess, perturbed, when I started seeing other people assume positions that I felt like I was better for. Let's just say — okay. First time I felt it. Kris Kross. Now, they were iconic in the fundamental landscaping of Atlanta culture — from the same side of town as me. The West Side. They went to a middle school in Atlanta public school system, just like I did. They frequented the mall on the weekends just for fun, just like I did. Popular kids; knew their way around the school. Everybody knew ‘em. Just like me.

And so, when they blew up — ‘Jump’ and ‘I Missed the Bus’ and all that shit came out — ‘Warm it Up,’ all that shit came out. I saw them in an interview, and they asked, “What happened? How did you...” and they said, “We were just walking to the mall, and Jermaine walked up to us, asked us who we were, and if we wanted to be rappers.” And we said, “Yeah, sure.” I say, “Bruh, I'm in this fucking mall every day. What the fuck’s going on? Motherfucker looked right past me — what the fuck’s going on, man? What did I...?” Then I found out they didn't write their own raps. I found out he was writing them for ‘em. At least I could have wrote for ‘em! What was going on? What's the deal?

And then, ABC — Another Bad Creation. Aisha. Playground. At first, the only people who I knew in hip hop was, like, LL Cool J, NWA, Too Short, 2 Live Crew. You know; Run-D.M.C.. You know what I mean? All older people; that was the people I knew. So I thought you had to be a grown-up to do it. I thought it was like, “Okay, cool.” So I’ll just keep on doing this — get my feet wet while I'm young, and get good, so when I get to be grown, I can go.” That was my plan.

And my uncle told me — before he went to prison, of course. He said, “Man, you learn everything you need to know about this, and I’ll put the money up for it.” At the time, he was getting a lot of money. Then he went to prison when I was about eight or nine, so that was off the table. But I was still learning. So I was like, “Okay, well I'm not going to just abandon the plan. I’m still going to stay on the course; keep learning, keep getting better.” And then, while I'm in the middle that — here come them. Like, “What the fuck? How did this happen? Right in front of my fucking nose.” It's not like it happened in another city. It happened in the same city, on the same side of town. And that made me angry.

Ryan: So then, what did you do? What did you do with that anger? That's the entrepreneurial question I'm really asking.

T.I.: I sold more drugs. I mean, I felt like it was up to me. But you know what? You know what really brightened my spirits and what gave me more hope? Master P. When Master P dropped, that’s when the idea of “make enough money...” see, before, I thought I had to go in a building and be deemed acceptable. I had to go through a gatekeeper. People had to say, “Okay, yes; you're good enough.”

Ryan: You had to be knighted.

T.I.: Right. But when Master P came, I’m like, “Oh. I could just make my own shit, one at a time, and sell it? I didn't know that.” And so then, that switched my plan up.

Ryan: You know the difference between a knight and a lord?

T.I.: I do not.

Ryan: A knight asks permission, and a lord tells people to fuck off.

T.I.: You dig what I'm saying. “I'll be a lord.”

Ryan: You’re a lord. I think you're a king. King of the South.

T.I.: Yeah, certainly. Indubitably. But they say it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission.

Ryan: That's something a lord would say. A knight would definitely ask permission.

T.I.: Nah, I ain't no fucking knight. I mean, I never like rules. I've always had an issue with authority — because I feel like, if we’re all living under the same government, what makes  you more of an authority than me? Just think about it. Like, even for laws. Who says that we have to put our blinker on? Who says that? Why is that a thing?

Ryan: Who says that's illegal?

T.I.: Yeah. Why is this illegal? Why does this mean that you’ve got the authorization to pull me over and write me a ticket? Stop my day, keep me from progressing in my journey, just because I didn't fucking flick a fucking piece of plastic. But did you die, though? Did I hurt anyone? Did I damage any property? These are just fucking imaginary fucking rules that you made up, just because you think they're appropriate. Because they suit your lifestyle.

Ryan: That's right. Yeah. Well, they are totally arbitrary.

T.I.: I mean, that's what I'm trying to say. That kind of shit pisses me off. I always had a problem with authority. You know, like the pledge. I got suspended in sixth grade for not standing up for the pledge. Got sent home.

Ryan: What did you not like about the pledge?

T.I.: Well, my uncle actually sent it to me. Same uncle; he’s doing time in prison; feeding me the knowledge. He actually sent it to me. He said, “Read this,” and I read it. And I looked up to where, “Hey, this shit’s talking about slavery.” I mean, I read all of it. I'm like, “I'm not standing up for this.” And I also, I just wanted to be a badass, you know? I was a rebel without a cause until then. Now I got a cause. Like, a justified meaning behind what I'm doing. Sitting down, man. And it was a big thing — because other people started to sit down. Nobody stood up. I didn’t stand up then; now you’ve got a bunch of kids, like, “Man, he ain’t standing up. What am I standing up for?”

So then it came down on me. “You’ve gotta stand up.” I said, “I ain’t gotta stand up. It’s against my constitutional right.” And then he sent me the Constitution, where you can't force nobody to do that. Like, “Man, you trippin’. You think I'm going to stand up for this shit? You got me fucked up.” So, you know what I'm saying? It became a big-ass thing at Woodland Middle School, because one sixth grader wouldn’t stand up for the pledge. They suspended me.

Ryan: The irony, obviously, is that not standing up for the pledge is a uniquely American right.

T.I.: Yes.

Ryan: A uniquely American right.

T.I.: As well as “Fuck the Police.”

Ryan: Yeah. That's a uniquely American right. Now there's some level — like, when you get into some of these questions about the police — the question is, how much lawlessness do you want in a society?

T.I.: Hey man, check this out. Any commission, organization, or union is only as good as its origin. The police force at its origin was brought together to capture and bring back slaves. So if that's its origin, it’s really just doing the same thing right now.

Ryan: Do you think all police are?

T.I.: Not all police, but the police force. The intention of the police force. They’re capturing criminals and taking them into privatized prisons where they are giving free labor. And they use false narratives like ‘black-on-black crime’ to kind of justify the militarization — over militarization — of the police, and the harassment of people of color in these areas, so they can perpetuate and continue the cycle.

Ryan: Now, police forces are thousands of years old.

T.I.: I know. Wait a minute — in America?

Ryan: No, not in America. I’m just saying, in society in general, the police forces are thousands of years old.

T.I.: I mean, we’re speaking about America. So that's kind of like a macro. This is a micro. Now we're going to get into, you know, the history of civilization, right?

Ryan: And in the history of civilization, police forces are there to enforce laws.

T.I.: Made by who?

Ryan: Whoever’s an authority.

T.I.: That's what I'm saying. What makes them an authority?

Ryan: Somebody said, ‘fuck you’ and then became a lord.

T.I.: See, that’s the thing, right? If we’re going by the Bible... If the Bible is the book of instruction, and we’re going by the Bible — the Bible said everyone under God, all men, are created equal.

Ryan: Oh, yeah.

T.I.: So how, all of a sudden, did you become an authority if we’re equal? If we’re equal, how the fuck did you become an authority? Unless I anoint you, or agree that you are the authority.

Ryan: Or in a lot of society, it was just whoever took the authority, right? So, it’s kind of like what you were talking about.

T.I.: Alright, so it's about guns.

Ryan: Force.

T.I.: It’s about guns and violence, at this point. I can get me a gun. Why should I not, now? “Okay; well, now I need a gun.”

Ryan: That's right.

T.I.: So, if you’re going to use this shit — if you’re going to use guns and violence to get what you want — you can't blame me for using guns and violence to get what I want.

Ryan: Agreed. Violence, unfortunately, has been used for people to get what they want for thousands of years.

T.I.: Yeah. But then, if somebody catches a fucking rap from a robbery, they’re the worst person in the world — when America was founded on robbery. It was built on it.

Ryan: Yeah. People would argue that all of civilization was built on robbery and theft and violence.

T.I.: I mean, I guess so. Some things, I think... before Pangaea split, things were kind of like, where you were born, where you are, what you have coming to you... you know what I mean?

Ryan: You don't think there was war?

T.I.: I think there's always war. I think there's free will. And women. Free will; women; greed. All this shit brings about war. You know — an ego. The ego is a terrible thing.

Ryan: I think I said this on another podcast, but I heard Tony Gonzalez — a Fox football announcer — talk, and he said something I thought was fantastic. He said, “Ego has no amigo. Not even for yourself.”

T.I.: Incredibly corny, but also insightful.

Ryan: I think only a guy with the last name Gonzalez gets to say that.

T.I.: Oh, shit. I didn’t even put that together. Okay. Serendipity.

Ryan: That's right. So, now, imagine that that you are put in charge. You are the authority of a large nation.

T.I.: “Y'all do what y’all want, just don’t fuck my shit up, alright?”

Ryan: So then when you say, “Don't fuck my shit up,” who enforces that?

T.I.: I think, for one, I would, I would place it in the hands first of whoever was violated. Like, let's just say you hit somebody’s car, or broke into somebody's house. I would catch you. I would have people that’d catch you, and bring you to a place where I'm not going to tell you what's going to happen to you. I'm gonna let the people who you violated tell you what's going to happen to you.

Ryan: Well, who's going to hunt them down? What are you going to call those people who go hunt them down — bring them to justice?

T.I.: People.

Ryan: Just the ‘people force.’

T.I.: Yeah. People. The civilization; the culture. I will call them the Culture.

Ryan: But that specific job, then. “Hey, somebody did something wrong. We’ve got to go get them.” What's that job called?

T.I.: The Culture is coming for you.

Ryan: The Culture is coming for you. All right, so the Culture is coming, and now the Culture gets you and puts you in a cell.

T.I.: I mean, we ain’t really gotta put you in a cell. We can handle this right now.

Ryan: That's right.

T.I.: At least right now. We ain’t gotta waste no amount of time.

Ryan: What if the person who was offended, or the person who was wrong...

T.I.: Maybe give us 24 hours, so we can find the person that you offended. Find the person that you violated — and then we can arrange a time. Maybe give them 24 hours.

Ryan: Right. So, 24 hours. They have to be in a lockdown of some sort.

T.I.: You ain’t even gotta be in lockdown. You know what? If you can pay this employee of the Culture — if you can pay his salary — to watch you at your house, you can stay there.

Ryan: You can stay at the house.

T.I.: But if you can't pay the salary, you’ve got to come to... you know.

Ryan: That's right. So then you had to come. And the person who was aggrieved — how do we prove that that person's telling the truth? Who claims they were aggrieved?

T.I.: Well, we’ll start with the honor system. And then, as people prove to outgrow the honor system, we’ll have to create contingencies like cameras.

Ryan: So, if it wasn't caught on camera, then how do you trust somebody?

T.I.: If they weren't caught on camera, how do you trust somebody? Well, I think that we would have to first gather all the facts.

Ryan: Gather all the facts.

T.I.: We’d have to gather all the facts.

Ryan: Who does that?

T.I.: Let me see... the Primaries.

Ryan: Primaries?

T.I.: Yeah. The Primaries must support, or analyze, the claims of the Culture.

Ryan: Right. So, the Culture acts based on faith. The Primaries verify.

T.I.: Yeah.

Ryan: What they think is the truth.

T.I.: Right.

Ryan: How many Primaries?

T.I.: How many?

Ryan: How do you avoid Primaries getting conflicted, or becoming corrupted?

T.I.: Well, they answer to the Superlatives.

Ryan: The Superlatives. So, the Superlatives, on some level, sound like they might be like judges. Right? So, at some point, we have to believe somebody.

T.I.: But guess what? Everybody must answer to the people. No position is above the people. That's the thing — if it all goes back to the people, then there’s checks and balances there. What we have now is impunitive power. People have to worry about the people. You’ve got policemen in neighborhoods that they've never experienced. They don't know who the people are. They don't know how to operate.

Ryan: So, you think all justice should be local?

T.I.: Man, listen; it all goes back to the people, because this is a service being provided to the people by the government. So it all goes back to the people, man.

Ryan: We’ve got to make the district smaller, then. You want the Culture, right? In this case, it’s kind of like what would oftentimes be thought of as police — but you want those to be people from that community.

T.I.: Absolutely.

Ryan: Right. That makes sense.

T.I.: You ain't got no business in this motherfucking community if you don’t know these people. And that's the thing. If the Culture is of this community, and this thing happened in this community, the Culture would be the closest to solving whatever happened.

Ryan: Well, and you want the Superlatives to be from the community, right? You want all these layers of whoever is deciding their fate.

T.I.: The Superlatives would be the enhanced versions of the Culture. So, if the Culture comes from this community, the Superlatives would also work in this community, because they would come up from people, to Culture, to Superlatives.

Ryan: They would have to live in the community. It seems like they'd have to live in the community; otherwise, they don't do any good.

T.I.: If they did not grow up in the community, then they would have to live in the community, right? Because you grew up in the community, then you still have your ties and connections to that community, even if you don't live there.

Ryan: I love this. This actually makes tons of sense, because then it's almost like the Superlatives are the elders of the community — right? So now, you have elders who are making important decisions about right and wrong, justice and injustice; who understand the culture.

T.I.: Right. And another thing: bullets would be $1,000 apiece, at least. You can have a gun if you want one. But to get you a bullet? 1,000 dollars.

Ryan: Anywhere in the world?

T.I.: I thought I was only responsible for mine.

Ryan: No, no. Oh, great. So, you know.

T.I.: This is my nation.

Ryan: All right. So, in your nation, A bullet would cost $1,000.

T.I.: $1,000. And they’ll fucking think twice about it then.

Ryan: Because then it's expensive to pull that trigger.

T.I.: Bullets are cheap. They're too cheap right now. I’d make the bullets out of gold. Filled with gold dust. The lead would be gold. And you’ve got to think. You got to save up to kill somebody. That’d give you time to think.

Ryan: The only problem then is...

T.I.: I’ll give you a gun. Like a driver’s license. “Here.”

Ryan: Yeah. “Here's a gun.” But to shoot that thing is expensive.

T.I.: Just like a driver's license. As long as you can go... And people will have mortgages, or loans, on ammo.

Ryan: Right.

T.I.: You know what I'm saying? If you want to hunt, you’ve got to put this shit on layaway.

Ryan: It's funny, because I've actually I've heard people talk about how the low cost of ammo is actually a great equalizer — because what you don't want is the rich being the only ones who could afford ammo.

T.I.: Well, this is the thing, right? Nothing changes if nothing changes; and if you want it the way it is now, then that's a perfect plan. But, if you want to change, you’ve gotta push away from this.

Ryan: And try new things.

T.I.: You must. Insanity is going about things in the same way, hoping for a different result.

Ryan: Well, that's right. I like this idea, though — of, police being from communities, whatever those communities are designated as.

T.I.: I think the whole word ‘police’ has got to change; the whole word. Listen, have you ever seen the Stanford experiment?

Ryan: No, what is it?

T.I.: The Stanford experiment — if you Google it, the Stanford experiment is an experiment that a professor who worked at Stanford did in the 70s, and it was a pretty simple experiment. He put ads in papers for 12 students, and arbitrarily placed them in one column or the other. Let's just say, odd numbers, even numbers. He interviewed them, and he made them very, very randomly. He also took a hall in Stanford and made it into a cell block. A jail. And the odd numbers were the prisoners; the even numbers were the CEOs, or the police.

Ryan: The wardens.

T.I.: Yeah. So, these are Stanford students. It's all Stanford students — present Stanford students. This was supposed to last, I think, ten days. It lasted two.

Ryan: They said, “No, I'm out.”

T.I.: Look, bro. It ain’t that they said, “No, I’m out;” somebody tried to commit suicide. Broke out of that motherfucker. Simply because, within 12 hours, the people who were the police — they were saying shit like, “Well, you should have thought about that before you get yourself in here.” “Bro. I go to school with you. What are you doing?” That kind of impunitive power does something to the psyche and the ego that must be checked.

Ryan: The abuse of power.

T.I.: It must be checked. Human nature — free will — cannot go with impunitive power. It must be checked.

Ryan: You get a good check if you...

T.I.: But these are Stanford students. And they couldn't read the same — the people who were in the prison, the ‘prisoner pile.’ They couldn’t read the same. Their ambitions shrunk.

Ryan: Their anxiety level went up.

T.I.: You know what I mean?

Ryan: Well, when your anxiety is that high... I mean, it's interesting. Like, when I listen to you talk about your childhood...

T.I.: There's a film about it. There’s a few films about it. I read an article on it, and then I saw a film come out about it. I just thought, like, “Bro, if this shit could happen to Stanford students, and this shit was just... what the fuck? Like, a week of their lives? A motherfucker who's been on the force for 15, 16 years? The power, the authority, the impunity of judgment that comes from that — how does it feed that ego?”

Ryan: I mean, all of our roles in society feed ego on some level.

T.I.: But they are different, because they took an oath. They are supposed to be — they are paid to be perfect.

Ryan: How do we fix it?

T.I.: Taxpayers pay them to be perfect, bro. I mean, a policeman can't make no mistake. He can't make no mistake. If they make a mistake, the government’s gotta pay for it. You know why? Because taxpayers’ money is going to their salaries. You can't make no mistake; you’re being paid to be perfect. We expect more from our motherfucking athletes. We expect more from Matt Ryan than we do from the police. Well, but he’s fucking up pretty bad. But I'm just saying.

Ryan: He's getting paid a lot more.

T.I.: Fair point.

Ryan: Higher expectations.

T.I.: Fair point. But I'm just saying: his mistakes don't affect the community at large.

Ryan: Well, they affect the psychology of the community at large.

T.I.: Not really. What you see, or what touches you, moves you, guides you, or prohibits you as you step outside your door — that's what has the most effect on your psyche.

Ryan: I agree with that. How do we fix it?

T.I.: Dismantle. Rebuild.

Ryan: Okay.

T.I.: You’ve gotta tear it all down. Tear it all down, bro. And that’s what nobody wants to do. You know why they don’t want to do it? I don't blame them. But you know why they don't want to do it? Because they've worked so hard in this system, and they've made their way, and they did everything that the system told them they were supposed to do. And nobody wants to say that, when they've made it all the way here, and they've come all the way up this ladder — and now, “This shit ain't important no more. We’re going to dismantle this shit. You’ve gotta start over.”

Nobody wants to do that. I understand that. But that's how you fix it. So, if we worry more about those people who don't want to be brought back down to square one than we do about the people, in totality, of the nation — the nation will fail.

Ryan: So, you're starting from a blank slate. A blank sheet of paper.

T.I.: You have to.

Ryan: And the blank sheet of paper goes back to this notion of ‘the culture.’ You try to keep it local.

T.I.: I think different laws should apply to different cultures. To be honest with you, I think the rednecks should have their own culture. I think the people who don't like people of color — they should have their own space in society. They should have their own space where they ain't got to deal with nobody but themselves. To be honest with you, if that’s what they want, they should have it. They should be able to have it. The Constitution says that they should be able to have that. So we should carve them a piece out.

Ryan: Do you have to carve out a geographic piece?

T.I.: Yes. I mean, it ain't got to be adjacent; interconnecting. But then, I think it should. It should be borders.

Ryan: So, you start getting countries instead of countries, almost.

T.I.: Almost. But that's the thing. You’ve got to deal with people on their own terms. If you grew up as a racist, and you turned 35, the last thing you’re going to do is turn away from the shit you experienced.

Ryan: Oh, yeah. You have to be a very developed soul to have that kind of transformation.

T.I.: That's what I'm trying to say. What we’re asking people to do is unrealistic. I don’t have no problems with rednecks, or white folks who don't like black people — because the reason they don't like black people is because they ain't never spent no time around black people. I ain't got no problem with that — as long as you ain't got no motherfucking authority that you can exalt over my freedom, my liberty, and my progression. If all you’re doing is being a racist in your house, on your own, to yourself? Bro, I don't give a fuck what you’re doing.

Ryan: Haha, I love that.

T.I.: I don’t give a fuck what you’re doing, bro. You have no bearing on me. But if you are a policeman, and you’re racist, and you use your authority to be racist against my child? Well, now I've got a problem with you. If you are president, and you’re racist, and you lead other racists, and you inspire other racists? Now you are dictating and determining the temperature of society. And we live in this society. And if you’re telling them that it’s alright to say this, it’s alright to do this, it’s alright to handle it this way — you finna get their ass kicked. Or get me killed. Or get their ass kicked, and then go call the police, and then get me killed.

So, this shit ain't going to work. It just ain't going to work. I'm not going to go forward. And there’s plenty of other people — like, man, you ain’t going to go forward. You push the smallest dog into a corner — we’re talking about a little puppy — that motherfucker’s gonna come out biting, with all the teeth he’s got. And it ain't even realistic for them to think that we will continue to accept this kind of atrocity. To our children, our mothers, our family, our grandmothers, our uncles, our aunts, our brothers and sisters and mamas — like, come on, bro.

Who’s gonna let somebody kill their mom, and then they ain’t going to do nothing? Ain’t nobody going for that. Who’s gonna let somebody beat on their son or daughter, and then do nothing? I don’t give a fuck who you are. I don’t give a fuck what color you are. I don’t give a fuck what kind of uniform you’ve got on. Bro, you’ve got my life coming at you. All the experiences, all of the momentum, all of the leverage, all of the goodwill I have within my being; it’s coming at you, bro. Because this means the world to me. Now you’re impeding on my peace. And that shit ain't going to work.

So, if they want it like that... I'm not saying that, “Hey, man. I'm right. You’re wrong.” I'm saying, “Bro, you want it like that? Let’s carve a little piece of the world out for you, and let you go be that, where you’re at. But when you come in here, you need to understand: this is our home, and this is what it’s like where we’re at.” Like, separatism. Marcus Garvey.

Ryan: Separatism.

T.I.: Separatism. It’s a theory by Marcus Garvey. He said it’s best to be separate, and that people who are like-minded stay around the people who are of the presumption, or the theory, that they operate within. And I think that's really it.

Ryan: So then, at the national level...

T.I.: I think the Separated States of America would work better.

Ryan: Separated? Well, they might only be united by liberty.

T.I.: I think the gays should have their own state, or their own region. I think the blacks — and when I say blacks, I'm talking about hip hop. I’m not talking about just black people; I’m talking about hip hop. Young progressives.

Ryan: Young progressive hip hop.

T.I.: You know what I'm saying? Where weed is legal. And there ain't no motherfucking noise ordinances.

Ryan: No curfews.

T.I.: No curfews at all. You know what I mean? We’d make our own laws based on our lifestyle; based on our culture. I think the Mexicans, and Latinos — they should have their own region. Rednecks should have their own region. And then there should be a region where everybody can come into, and they’ve got to respect everybody's shit. But, you know, this is neutral territory. So when you come in here... Native Americans. Can't forget. You’ve got to get them theirs, because they started this shit.

Ryan: They might be the closest to already having that.

T.I.: I mean, I get it. But everybody has their own region. And then you have a region where, “This is for everybody. Everybody got to come in in my and everybody got to respect everybody else's cultures. Everybody. You can't just come in here a redneck. You’ve got to shed your redneck shit at the door; at the border. Because that’s against the law.

Ryan: So, it's neutral.

T.I.: It’s against the law to call anybody a ‘faggot.’ It's against the law to call anybody a ‘nigger.’ It’s against the law to call anybody a ‘spic,’ or anything offensive, in the neutral territory.

Ryan: It can't be used; that language.

T.I.: Can't be used. That shit’s gonna get you fucked up. The Culture's coming to get you.

Ryan: Well, the neutral territory sounds pretty fascist.

T.I.: I don't know what that’s called. Now you're getting into the semantics of politics. I'm not interested. Are we interested in finding ways to make shit work? Or do we want to fit within the conformities of what is already written for us?

Ryan: So, at the highest level, the government — whoever the government is, over, this whole thing — has to enforce freedom and liberty above all, right? Above all things, it has to be able to enforce the freedom for each of these little mini-cultures.

T.I.: True freedom. Not just artificial freedom that they tell us about; true freedom.

Ryan: Yeah. The part that I'm trying to work out in my mind is, if you have this overarching true freedom — which I love, by the way. I think that, constitutionally, is what we're called to, and that the great gift of our ancestors is true, real freedom.

T.I.: Right. You know what I think? I think New York should be the neutral territory.

Ryan: The neutral territory.

T.I.: Yeah. Maybe New York and the Tri-State. New York, New Jersey, Philadelphia.

Ryan: Right. But should the neutral territory be that highly controlled, or should the neutral territory be almost like the Wild West — where it's only controlled by the freedom of individuals? Not controlled by the Culture, because the Culture controls each of those little domiciles.

T.I.: I don't know.

Ryan: So, it's dangerous. It's dangerous to go out into the neutral zone, because you have true unlimited freedom.

T.I.: The quality of your character is going to carry you. If you’re a racist, and you don't like black people, or you don't like white people, or you don't like Mexican people, you don't like Jewish people — you know what I mean? If that is who you are, that is how you feel, but you have the discernment to kind of separate and treat people... Really, you gotta treat people the way you want to be treated. Period.

Ryan: Period.

T.I.: You ain't better than nobody, and there ain't nobody better than you. They might have more money than you. They might be better at something than you. But ain't nobody better than nobody. So that’s, I think, the principle that the neutral territory has to have. Like, we all own this big ball of dirt. Sharing space. And ain't nobody got no more of a right to these big ball of dirt than nobody else. You see what I'm saying?

Ryan: I get it.

T.I.: So, if you operate on those principles, then that’s the neutral territory. Look; there ain't no separate water fountains. There ain’t no “You can't use this bathroom and that bathroom.” It ain't none of that. But at the same time, you’ve got to respect everybody. All flags fly.

Ryan: All flags.

T.I.: All flags fly in the neutral territory. The LGBTQ. The Confederate flag. The Black Panther Fight the Power flag. The Black Lives Matter. The motherfucking American, the Mexican, the Jewish flag — all flags fly in the neutral territory.

Ryan: And the danger might be that in the neutral territory...

T.I.: “Take your ass home. Take it home, now. You fucked up.”

Ryan: That's exactly right.

T.I.: Border Patrol’s coming for you.

Ryan: Well, see, here's the difference. Border Patrol might not come for you in the neutral territory. In the neutral territory, people come for each other, because there's no enforcement there. That's why I say it's the Wild West.

T.I.: The Culture will come for you. Because, to be honest, that's what it is right now. You’ve got ‘Me-Too-ers’ coming for people. You’ve got Black Lives Matter coming for people. You’ve got the MAGA coming for people. Like, that's all it is right now, to be honest with you.

Ryan: But see, that might be okay if...

T.I.: That’s the concept of the neutral territory. America; the United States; they have the neutral territory without the separatism.

Ryan: Right. So, imagine that there's a world where the people you just... the MAGA folks, the BLM folks — whoever you want to separate. But then, in the neutral territory, you’d better be on your best behavior.

T.I.: Or you’d better be right. Whatever you say, you’ve gotta be right. Like, for instance, let’s just say a black man were to say, “Oh, no. Nah. This is very dangerous. Let me think about that.”

Ryan: Well, it's dangerous in the neutral zone.

T.I.: It is. But we're living in it right now. This is the neutral zone. But none of us have a place or a region to escape to. And black people have such a unique argument, because everybody else came here of their own free will. You brought us here.

Ryan: I didn't bring you here, but I agree. Somebody who looks like me might have brought you here. It’s possible.

T.I.: Yeah. Give or take the eye color; the length of the beard. But, yeah, I get that. What I'm saying is, we didn't ask to be here. But we were brought here to build this shit. We did it. And to be honest with you? Now, it's almost like, if you ask a motherfucker to fix your car, and then once it’s fixed, you’re like “Fuck off.” He’d just be, like, “Man, come on. I didn’t ask for this. I don’t need this energy. What’re you doing? You obviously needed me. That’s why you brought me here to do this. But now that I've done it, you’re just going to fuck off with my money? What the fuck?” You can't do that. You can't do that, because you wouldn’t want nobody to do you like that. You wouldn’t want your children to be done like that. Nobody wants that. You know what I mean?

So, now, equity has been tethered to the fundamental, foundational structure of this land. But nobody wants to recognize it. They feel like, because you've been separated and put into this circle — this red circle, whatever, of area that is lower; the real estate value is lower — because you see what it is now. Well, your real estate value is higher. I built that shit, and all of the shit that comes from the culture. Whether it’s Jack Daniel, who was taught by Uncle Nearest — he brought y’all whiskey for all this time. Whether it’s George Washington Carver, who created peanut butter — for you to give Jif all the fucking credit. You dig what I'm saying? You give the credit to Jif or Peter Pan, when George Washington Carver is the motherfucker who created the fucking peanut butter.

Ryan: Right. And he didn't get the intellectual property rights to peanut butter.

T.I.: I'm just telling you, man. That kind of shit, to me, is the issue. You brought us here. We did what the fuck we were supposed to do. We did everything we were supposed to do. And every time we get to a place where it's like, “Okay, we completed our task,” you moved the goal line.

Ryan: You feel like the goal line's moved right now.

T.I.: All the time. It’s always being moved, because just think about it. Just think about it. The goal line in the 60s and 70s was, “Go to high school. Get a college degree,” and then you move forward in life and you never look back. Right? When black people started going to college to get college degrees, then you started seeing people go to college and come home, and they still can't get a job.

When black women and black men began to say, “Okay, this is the key, guys. I have to go to school; do good. We have to stay in our books, make good grades, score high on our SATs, go to college, get a degree. Then we come back. And now we can make a great life for ourselves.” When black people started participating in that, then that’s when the motherfuckers became devalued. Like, I've seen so many people get college degrees. They come back, and they still ain't got no job, man. That shit don't make no sense.

Ryan: Well, that goes back to some of the conversation we had about capital, right? If there's not capital inside of a culture, then it's hard to build the culture.

T.I.: But I'm talking about the jobs, though. Because the American workforce was set on a requirement.

Ryan: Well, what's interesting to me, as I keep thinking about this idea of the culture — these micro cultures — is that certainly... and I don't know a lot about black culture in Atlanta; black culture in America.

T.I.: You don't?

Ryan: I mean, not compared to you. You grew up in it, right? I didn't grow up in it. I know a lot theoretically, but what I do know a lot about is white people. And what's interesting about white people is, white people already kind of live in these separate cultures. They make their separate worlds. They capitalize and build whatever worlds they want. And that's one of the reasons why white people in general — not just southern whites, but northern whites; people that were never involved with slavery, that came to America ended up in the northeast, then got in their wagons and went to Minnesota. Right? These folks love America, because they build whatever worlds they want underneath the banner of freedom.

T.I.: They build whatever worlds they want underneath the banner of slavery.

Ryan: The whole banner of slavery?

T.I.: Fuck yeah. This shit could have never been what it is right now, bro. Let's say a guy never even participated in slavery, right? And he drove his wagon from wherever to wherever. Wherever he drove to, two miles down was somebody who did participate in slavery. The value of whatever was going on two miles down raised the value of whatever land this gentleman bought.

Ryan: Well, that may be true in Georgia.

T.I.: No, I'm talking about — I don't give a damn where it is.

Ryan: In Canada?

T.I.: In America.

Ryan: Alaska?

T.I.: Is it in America?

Ryan: It's across from Russia.

T.I.: What I'm saying is, it’s America, okay? America, as a nation: all ships rise with the high tide. America, as a nation, benefited exponentially from slavery. So wherever you went in America, and you made your way — even if you didn't participate in slavery — people who came to shop with you, people who patronized your business, people who helped you, who invested in you. Some kind of way, six degrees of separation — that shit came from slavery. Three degrees of separation.

Ryan: Right. But doesn't that implicate the Canadians and the Mexicans?

T.I.: I don't give a damn who's involved. I'm going at Lloyd's of London, and they’re all the way in Europe.

Ryan: You're right. Exactly.

T.I.: I don't give a damn who's involved. Listen. Nobody's excluded. So yeah, man. I truly think that America has to be more aware. And how could you be more aware of the indigenous Native Americans than you are of us? They have their own level of pain and experience that, to be honest with you, I'm not even worthy to speak on, even though I'm part Cherokee. I don't know enough about their pain to speak about it. But what I do know is they've had reparations. They've had consideration given. We have not. And I don't want to compare pains. I get into this a lot with my Jewish partners. I want to compare progress. Damn how much pain each of us went through. How much progress have you made? After your pain, how much progress have we made? Let’s compare that.

Ryan: Yeah. My Jewish friends say, “Well, it only took us 6000 years.” Like, wow.

T.I.: Hey, look, man. You go back... let me tell you something. Who killed Jesus?

Ryan: The culture.

T.I.: Was there a prominent religion at the time?

Ryan: Well, Jesus was Jewish.

T.I.: Jesus was Jewish, and killed by... What religion killed him?

Ryan: Well, I think he was actually officially murdered by the Romans.

T.I.: The Romans? And what religion did they practice?

Ryan: They were pantheist.

T.I.: Pantheist? What the fuck is that?

Ryan: Well, they believe kind of everything was God. But then they had all these gods, right?

T.I.: This sounds like a motherfucker I can't figure out. Who do you want to commit to?

Ryan: Can't commit. The Romans definitely didn't want to commit to a god.

T.I.: Yeah, man, because they thought they thought that they were God.

Ryan: Well, I think there's probably something to be said there, for sure. The Caesars thought they were God.

T.I.: I mean, but at the end of the day, everybody's pain is important. Everybody’s pain creates a path to progress as a civilization. But you can't sit on one piece of pain, one person's pain, and one people's pain, without considering them all. Because it's just not human.

Ryan: So recently, Mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms pulled you into some of that cultural pain and asked you to participate in trying to help bring some healing. Tell me about that experience.

T.I.: You talking about this summer?

Ryan: Yeah, this summer, when things were getting pretty wild in Atlanta.

T.I.: Okay. Well, I will say that it was a tumultuous time for the entire nation. We had watched a black man be kneeled on, at his oxygen cavity, for eight minutes and 45 seconds.

Ryan: Yeah, that was a terrible video.

T.I.: After begging and pleading to be assisted, and to be relieved of this pressure. I don't think that the video is as powerful without audio that goes with it; see what I'm saying?

Ryan: Well, they're both powerful, but I agree — combined, it's just hard to watch.

T.I.: And also, the eyes of this gentleman who was doing the kneeling. He seemed somewhat demented; somewhat possessed. A man on a mission from hell. That’s what it seemed like to me. And I'm just an observer. I'm no expert; no expert here. But you see that. You have that, for your observation, coupled with isolation from a pandemic. People in the house; can’t go nowhere. Coupled with loss of jobs; financial market crashing. Shit’s hitting the fan.

Ryan: Across the board.

T.I.: You dig what I'm saying? And everybody's affected. I'm not saying that black people... I guess statistically, we are most affected. But, either way, white people had a reason to be angry and upset, too. And we see this travesty take place right before our eyes. In front of our children, no less. People got out on the streets, and they felt that something had to be done, as they should.

Now, in Atlanta, which is the last place I felt like was going to be... I guess you could say eligible for this type of reaction. It happened here, too. And when it happened here, I was actually walking the house that I was considering buying. And I get a call from the mayor's office, and they say, “Hey; people are talking about demonstrations. A demonstration’s going on, and it’s getting unruly. And we’re just putting you on notice.” I’m like, “Putting me on notice?” “Just letting you know. I mean, just in case we need something.” “Right. But I'm looking into buying a house right now, so I’ll hit you back.”

I didn’t take it very seriously. I finished walking the house. Then I got in my car, and I drove back toward the city, going toward the studio. I got calls again. “Hey, they’re throwing bottles at policemen.” “Well, do those policemen have on helmets?” I mean, like, for real. You know me. I thought that was a good question to ask at the time.

I got to the studio, and I met Killer Mike at the studio — because he brought the Bankhead Seafood truck. I wanted some Bankhead Seafood — which is a business that he and I owned together with Noel Khalil, and also Noreaga, who is a gentleman from Queens in New York; he's a rapper. An iconic rapper; legendary. He now hosts a very prestigious podcast by the name of Drink Champs. So, he was there as well. And my family, my wife, my kids — everybody was there. Other girls; my wife's friends. Killer Mike’s wife, and her friend. Noreaga and his friends. We’re outside of my studio, just really chilling. Eating fried fish, drinking, smoking, chilling. Everybody's cool.

I get another call. “They just set a police car on fire.” “Oh, shit. Where?” “At the CNN center. They're taking the CNN center.” I'm like, “They’re taking the CNN Center? What do you mean?” I didn’t understand. I couldn't process it. And then, before I could even wrap my mind around, they say, “The mayor's going up there. She wants you to go with her.” I say, “Okay, first, tell her: do not go up there. Period. It's the first thing. Do not go up there. That is not the key. You have an unruly mob throwing knives at the police, setting fires to police cars. That is no place for a mayor.” But her first mind was to go up there.

I say, “Hey, listen. Can we tap into the jumbotrons that are around the CNN center and have her give a message?” And they say, “I don’t know. We'll see. We'll see if we could do that. We’ll call you back.” I knew I wasn't going up there. And I hadn't even told Killer Mike or nobody about this shit at this time. I'm trying to handle it myself.

Ryan: They’re just enjoying their seafood.

T.I.: They're just enjoying it, man. They're enjoying the moment. It was a vibe. We were playing music, and smoking, and kicking it. Everybody's having a good time. Kids throwing footballs. Like it was really a good time. And I get another call, and that call was, “She's holding a press conference in 30 minutes. She needs you there. Are you coming?” I’m like, “Do I have to?” “She needs you. She needs you there.” I’m like, “What? Okay. Alright.”

So I hang up the phone, and in five minutes, they call back. “Where are you?” I’m like, “Where am I? What do you mean, where am I?” “Do you need a car? We’ll send a car.” “I don't need a car. I have a car. What's going on?” And I tell them, “Mike, Keisha needs us, bro. She’s doing a press conference about... you know, stuff is going on. And she needs us there.” He said, “What do you mean?” I say, “No, she needs us there with her as she hosts the press conference.”

He said, “Why?” I said, “Well, because they set a police car on fire at the CNN Center. And she kinda needs us there.” He’s like, “Man, that's not our damn jobs. That's not our jobs. We do not get paid by any government. We do not. That's not our job.” I said, “Hold on. That’s our sister. She comes from my hood. She went to our high school. Ultimately I don’t see this as the mayor calling us. This is our homegirl. This is our sister calling us. And she's obviously in a position where she could use our help. I'm going.”

He said, “Man, you going?” I said, “I'm going. You see me? I'm in a tank top now. I'm in a wifebeater. It's hot outside. It's 80-some degrees outside. I have a wifebeater on. You know what I mean? I've been drinking — and I’m telling you, man. I got to go. She called. I ain't going to leave her out there, bro. I ain't going to do that.” He said, “If you go, I ain't going to let you walk in there by yourself. I said, “Well, let's go.”

I grabbed me a shirt out the truck and put it on. And we rode up there. First we talked to the chief of police, and the chief of police was telling us about it. It had gotten progressively worse every second; every minute — from the first call to the second call to the third call to when I arrived. It was no signs of slowing down. She was like, “Yo, we can only hold back Georgia State Patrol for so long. And the governor's asking for permission to send in the National Guard.” She was holding back the National Guard, and she was like, “How long before Georgia State Patrol has authorization to step in?” She gave a time, and she's like, “Okay, we’ve got this much time to get this much solitude — so the Georgia State Patrol don’t step in. And then the National Guard is gonna step in, because then we don't have any control over the circumstances at that point.”

Her intention was to maintain control of circumstances — where the citizens would be dealing with Atlanta Police. Not dealing with Georgia State Patrol, and not dealing with the National Guard. That was her intention, and that was she communicated to the Chief of Police, and that’s what was communicated to me. Me and Mike were just listening. “Yeah. M-hm.” This is the first fucking meeting like this I'd ever been into. Like, “Okay. Yeah. Alright.”

Had there been any injuries — like, ain’t nothing been destroyed at this point but property. No people had been hurt. These properties, they’ve probably got insurance. We don't want them fucking up the city, because we don't want it to escalate to the point where it's out of our control — but they really did nothing but fuck up some people's personal property.

So, she goes out there. She does the press conference, and she speaks. And the energy she spoke with was different — far different — from the energy that she spoke with us in the back room. She was very calculated and candid; matter of fact and calm. When she got out there, she was like, “Your motherfucking ass better get your ass out of there. Troubles are coming.” Know what I mean?

Ryan: She was laying down the law.

T.I.: She was saying it as relatable to the people she was speaking to as possible. She speaks in the voice of the people that need to hear her voice the most. She comes from that community, so she knows what resonates.

Ryan: She's like one of the Superlatives.

T.I.: She is a Superlative. Exactly. So then, after that, she turned around. Me and Mike were standing there. She turned around and said, “Anybody else got something that you want to say?” I said “Shit. Damn. Alright I’m going out there.” And so I go out there. From the place I was standing, to the point that I get to this damn podium, is where I came up with whatever I said.

I just said something that I felt would resonate to citizens, to business owners — to the community at large. I didn't want to just represent the radicals. I didn’t want to just represent the business owners. I just tried to say something that was broad enough. “Wakanda. That’s something we can all agree on right? Everybody likes Black Panther, right?”

So, I did the best I could, given the circumstances. And I’d do it again. I’ll walk into any fight, any battle, with Keisha and Mike. I would, because I trust their intentions. They have a genuine interest to help the community and to help our people. And I’ll walk into any fire with them — as well as Tamika Mallory. Certain people, man. Charlamagne tha God. I would go. Angela Rye. I’m gonna go and fight with you. I'm gonna go because I trust you. I know you’re a warrior. Warriors respect other warriors. I recognize whatever it is. “Whatever you don't got, I got.” Know what I mean?

Ryan: Is there anywhere else in America that has the kind of black leadership for black culture the way Atlanta does?

T.I.: No.

Ryan: Yeah, I didn't think so.

T.I.: Absolutely not — which is the point of my message. If all the rest of this shit burned down to the ground, we’ve got to start somewhere. We should start where it’s the most like it.

Ryan: Atlanta’s like that.

T.I.: Atlanta is the closest representation — the most like what we hope for America to be. So if they burn down everything else around us, and we have to rebuild, we can't burn down Atlanta —because that’s what we’re rebuilding from.

You’ve got, 20 minutes to the east, the largest representation of Confederacy — the largest monument to the Confederacy, at Stone Mountain. You go 15 minutes north, there's Marietta Square, where black men and women were hanged on weekends, like a matinee. “You ain’t got nothing else to do? Hey, man, get the kids together; dress up. Put on the good clothes. We're going to go watch a nigger hang.” You know what I'm saying? And if we ain't going to those places first, we’re doing ourselves a terrible disservice. We’re showing that we don't care really about justice. We don't care about the cause. We just want to serve our self-gratuitous needs, wants and desires.

So that was my point. And they ain’t taking that away. But I don't really care what people think. I surround myself with people whose intentions, ambitions and missions I can understand, trust and support. And if you’re one of them people — if you call me, I'm coming. I’m gonna come. I ain’t gonna ask you. I’mma just come. Whatever happens happens. And if I end up on the fucked-up side of that, then shit — I'm gonna sit in the fire. And we'll talk about it later. This is the way I was built.

Ryan: Alright. Imagine that you had the power to make a significant impact on Atlanta — which, you’ve already had a significant impact on Atlanta. But imagine, over the next five years, you could change three things. What are three things that you imagine that you'd love to see happen in Atlanta, culturally?

T.I.: First, I’d love to see them acknowledge, accept, and respect the culture that keeps this city running. It's almost like everybody wants the money that comes from hip hop, but they don’t want none of the culture that comes with it. Everybody wants to reap the benefits. Like, you might have some land. Let's just say you’ve got it over on Marietta Street, and there’s a club right there that keeps people parking in your parking lot. You love the money that comes from the parking. But you don't like when people drop blunt debris as they roll their reefer.

Bro, that’s the cost of doing business. If you're going to accept and reap the benefits of the funds and profits that come from the culture, then you’re gonna have to take what comes with the culture.

So, that's one thing. Another thing is, I think Atlanta should be a 24-hour town. There’s too many people here, bro. And everybody don’t operate on the same hours. Everybody ain't on the same schedule. I think Atlanta should be a 24-hour town — like Vegas, a little bit. Or New Orleans, or Miami. This shit is a town that moves on its own time, and anything there is that someone should get, someone will be able to get it 1 p.m., 3 p.m.; they should be able to get it at 1 a.m., 3 a.m., 5 a.m. as well.

The third thing is kind of spliced — because I think we’d have more affordable housing in the city limits of Atlanta, because 90% of people who work in Atlanta can't afford to live in Atlanta. I’d have more affordable housing, but the housing would also have to have a school of the arts within it. Atlanta — with all of the arts that we produce; with all the culture that we represent; with all of the finances and the profits that come from our culture and from the arts — there is no school of the arts in Atlanta.

Ryan: Is that right?

T.I.: Nope. Not one.

Ryan: How is that possible?

T.I.: That's what I'm saying. So, affordable housing and a school of the arts would kind of be incorporated into one. Those are the things I’d change. Was it three things or five things?

Ryan: No, no; I think that's great. I mean, I love the school of the arts. I think that can be fixed. That's something we could fix over the next five years.

T.I.: Let's do it.

Ryan: Let's do it.

T.I.: Sure.

Ryan: Yeah. I'm working on a big project right now with McNair High School.

T.I.: Oh, dope.

Ryan: You know, because McNair High School is three minutes from here.

T.I.: That’s Butts, ain’t it? It’s called Butts now, right?

Ryan: No, no; it's still called McNair.

T.I.: Oh, no. That was Crim. Well, no; I take that back. I think it was called something else before it was called Crim. We can edit this out. I've been drinking. That’s the tequila talking.

Ryan: McNair is just two minutes up the road; three minutes up the road, whatever it is.

T.I.: You know, there's two McNairs.

Ryan: I didn't know that.

T.I.: Yeah. There's one in College Park. Right down the street from World Changers, the church.

Ryan: Yeah, this one is just up on Bouldercrest.

T.I.: Okay.

Ryan: And it was originally a high school built for, I think, 2100 or 2200 kids. Today, 650 kids go to school there.

T.I.: Damn.

Ryan: So it's barren. But it has a lot of excess building space and land that we've been working with DeKalb County Schools and the Georgia Film Academy to create a center of film and television learning — that would also maybe have some gaming, and also have some music — but really focus on entertainment, as a hub. But I don't know why we couldn't do something like that in Atlanta.

T.I.: We should; we just simply should. I mean, there's no reason why it shouldn't be able to go.

Ryan: Yeah.

T.I.: You know, another thing that I heard Malcolm X say that really resonated with me is, “Any race of people...” Or maybe he said, “Any oppressed people depending on their oppressor to educate their children — they’re fucking fools.” Well, I paraphrased at the end, but it's the same thing.

Ryan: Yeah. That's right.

T.I.: They’re just going to teach your children to be oppressed. So we have to control what goes into the minds and thoughts of our children.

Ryan: Well, that's true in every subculture in America.

T.I.: You’d never go to a Jewish community and see them sending their kids to school that praises Hitler as a hero.

Ryan: No way.

T.I.: Yeah, but it happens in Black America every day. They teach us about Robert E. Lee, and all these people in the Confederate Army that they kinda celebrate as heroes. These are the people who were fighting to keep us enslaved. And we have to mark down the right answer: “Who was the hero of this battle?” The hero? This motherfucker was a slave owner. That goes totally against us. That’s like making wiener dogs eat hot dogs. You don't do that. It's just not fair, right? I’m just saying that. But that kind of shit, I think we’ve got to get a handle on.

Ryan: Alright; well, hey. This has been amazing. We're out of time — but what a gift. Thank you for coming and joining this podcast.

T.I.: Thanks for having me, bro.

Ryan: So much fun.

T.I.: Right on, man.

Ryan: I'm Ryan Millsap, and this is the Blackhall Studios Podcast.

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