Ryan Millsap Goes Deep with Clifford "T.I." Harris - PART 1
Ryan Millsap, Chairman & CEO of Atlanta-based Blackhall Studios, is one of today’s top entertainment executives! With a vision for Blackhall that’s ambitious, energizing and boundless, Millsap is blazing a trail through the heart of the South – and setting his sights on the future of entertainment. Listen and learn as Ryan Millsap journeys through the myriad industries, people and landscapes that traverse the complex and dynamic world of film production.
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Ryan: I'm Ryan Millsap, CEO of Blackhall Studios in Atlanta, and this is the Blackhall Studios Podcast. Why does a busy Hollywood studio do a podcast, you might ask? Blackhall is home of great movies like Jumanji: The Next Level, and fan-favorite series like HBO's Lovecraft Country. But for me, hosting a podcast is an amazing way to meet people and to connect to the community. I learn from each interview, and from each person.
My roots are actually in America's heartland. My mother's from Nebraska; my father's from Missouri. And though some folks might think I've ‘gone Hollywood,’ I'm now just an Atlanta boy who loves to meet new and interesting people. And yes — some of them will just happen to be famous Hollywood types. I'm a dad; a businessman. I live on a farm out in Social Circle, and I love the peace and quiet there. But I also love to learn about the philosophy of human nature. So why a podcast? That's why. Thank you for joining me on this journey. I appreciate you.
Today on the podcast, I've got someone that you're all familiar with: Mr. Clifford “T.I.” Harris. Known as one of the world's greatest rappers, T.I. has dubbed himself ‘King of the South.’ With his newly released album out, titled LIBRA — meaning “The Legend is Back Running Atlanta” — T.I.’s ventures swing from music to television and movies, to design, to his own podcast titled ‘Expeditiously,’ to partnering with a top historically black college, Clark Atlanta. T.I. is a prolific artist and producer.
I'll talk with Tip, as he's known to his friends, about all of this — as well as interesting and purposeful roles that he has in economic development for the city of Atlanta. Ladies and gentlemen — T.I.
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Ryan: T.I., welcome to the Blackhall Studios Podcast.
T.I.: Oh, man. Thanks for having me.
Ryan: It's our pleasure. So, when I was thinking about your path as an entertainment entrepreneur. Because really, at the end of the day, entertainers are entrepreneurs who are taken on their own path.
T.I.: Sure; sometimes. But, you know, other people get cushy rides. You know what I'm saying? You get big deals, and you get floated through on private jets, and in presidential suites, and champagne wishes and caviar dreams — all the way to number-one success. And then you get there. You look back, and you did all this work, and you have no equity in your art — you didn't really earn a dime for yourself. But you stayed in the top of the top all the way there. That's not necessary for entrepreneurs. Some people — for them, entertainment is really just as much of a job as it is for anyone who gets up and goes to a 9 to 5.
Ryan: Hm, I hadn’t thought about it that way.
T.I.: Some people have gotta live check to check. Some people live album to album. You might get some money to make this album, and that might have to carry you until you get a tour. Then that might have to carry them until they do another album — you know what I'm saying? I've met some pretty working-class celebrities in my time.
Ryan: So, that tells me that some of those guys are not motivated by money.
T.I.: Oh no. Oddly enough, ironic as it may seem, the ones who care about money the most are the ones who don't have it. The ones who are really like, “Man, it’s not about the money. I'm just doing it for the art,” you know what I mean? They always haven’t. All the people who don't even, like... you know, “We'll talk about the money later. We’ll worry about that. Let's just make sure it's dope. Let's just make sure it's right.” You know what I mean? Those are the ones who have the longevity. Those are the ones who — I’d probably be the exception to that.
Ryan: How did those guys avoid getting their intellectual property taken, legally?
T.I.: Well, no, they still handle the business, I think. I’ll give you an example. Look at Kanye. Kanye — it was never about how much money he could get up front. It was always about being in a position where he had an infrastructure set up around him — in equity, in the art he creates, to be able to do dope shit. He did an internship at Louis Vuitton, and inevitably, it turned into a shoe deal, where he released a shoe. Then he used it to get the attention of Nike. Nike let him in. And he designed two shoes for them: Yeezy One and Yeezy Two.
He didn't like the way Nike was treating him, I think, because he didn't have any points. I think they were kind of paying him, you know... I don’t want to call it a salary, but a retainer; a fee. They were paying him in fees, and he really had no points on the sales of the shoes. So then, he raised hell, and Adidas — who was struggling like a motherfucker at the time — was like, “Man, if you could come over here and do that, I’d give you 100% of everything Yeezy. I’d give you 100% of it.” And that’s what the fuck he went and did.
He owns 100% of Yeezy. 100%. Seems like a bad deal for Adidas now, when you look at it. But then, if you look at where they were in the marketplace at the time the deal was made, it kind of evens out — you know what I mean?
Ryan: Well, they see it as marketing dollars.
T.I.: Marketing dollars — and he turned them into a lifestyle brand. They were not a lifestyle brand before, and they are now a formidable competitor to Nike. You know what I mean?
Ryan: And you think Yeezy...
T.I.: Oh, absolutely. Without question, man — without question. It’s 5 billion dollars. And he has 100%. Haha!
Ryan: Wait, does that mean that, that he's worth...
T.I.: 5 billion dollars.
Ryan: Is he worth 5 billion? Are they doing $5 billion a year in profit?
T.I.: No.
Ryan: The whole thing's worth 5 billion.
T.I.: The valuation of the company. They probably do 1.5, or 1-something, a year. But over the course of 2 or 3 years — and, if you know what I'm saying, for future projections — he’s got a $5 billion company, that he has 100% of. 100%.
Ryan: That’s amazing. Do you think he's made more money?
T.I.: Absolutely, unequivocally, without question.
Ryan: So, when he focused on the art, then it led to being a designer of all things. Not just a designer of music.
T.I.: Curator; a curator of the universe.
Ryan: A curator of the universe.
T.I.: Yeah. He curated his universe.
Ryan: Do you think all artists — all successful artists — kind of feel that psychologically; that they're curators of the universe?
T.I.: I don't know if they feel it, but they do it.
Ryan: They do it.
T.I.: Yeah. Everybody's not aware of it. Everybody’s not aware of who they are — what they represent, what they mean to the universe — enough to even know that they're curating it. They're just living; you know what I mean? Pretty ambiguously, they do things that affect the tide of the culture, and most of them get no credit for it moving forward.
I’ll give an example. Let's just say, ‘Rubber Band Man.’ This song I did. It’s one of the dumbest things I've ever did — ‘Rubber Band Man.’ It’s two dumb things, really. But I’ll tell you this one first. So, ‘Rubber Band Man’ was a song on my second album, and that wasn't really a huge, huge deal at the time; I was growing into my success at this time. It was the most successful I’d been at the moment. But prior to that, I didn't have an enormous amount of success up under my belt in order to really throw my weight around — create any kind of significant leverage, or even anticipate an enormous success.
So, ‘Rubber Band Man’ was a record that blew up, and it didn't just blow up monetarily. Culturally. People started wearing rubber bands. They just started wearing them like fashion statements. And then, all of a sudden — do you remember those Nike Livestrong; those rubber bands they used to sell? That came from ‘Rubber Band Man.’ I had nothing to do with it. Those things came; those little bands, those little Fitbits, all this stuff. All this stuff came from ‘Rubber Band Man.’ All of it. You know what I'm saying?
Ryan: Yeah, I'm tracking.
T.I.: Had I had the forethought, or the awareness, that, “Hey we should patent the use of rubber bands and items like rubber bands that you put words on — we should patent this. And we’ll license it out if companies ever decide that they want to use it.” But that's me now; not me then. Stupid mistake.
Ryan: Well, but you then — what was the motivation for writing that song?
T.I.: The motivation for writing this song was really just me speaking about my experiences as a young drug dealer. Rubber bands were... so, let's just say I have, as a drug dealer, let's call it $5,000 worth of inventory, okay? And I know if this inventory's coming in 20s, 10s, 50s — I know from the last time I had $5,000, it was kind of hard to keep up with and keep it in my pocket. So I need to prepare. And I wear rubber bands, so when I get a pocket full of money, and it's kind of falling out of my pocket, I wrap it up in a rubber band. I put it back in my pocket, where I know: “Okay, this is this much.” Now, as I make more money and get off of more inventory, I can keep it neat and move forward — you know what I'm saying?
Ryan: Yeah. You have an accounting in your pocket.
T.I.: Well, on my wrist.
Ryan: Oh, because you're wearing more than one rubber band. So every time you go down a rubber band... how many rubber bands did you start with?
T.I.: Five, usually. So, usually, $1,000 stacks. That's what that was; that was the spirit of the song.
Ryan: But that was just expression, right — at the time, psychologically?
T.I.: Sure, it was. Just telling my story.
Ryan: Just telling your story.
T.I.: Yeah. Telling my story. You know what I'm saying? Telling the things that made my experience as a teenager unique; made my experience in my formative years. This is like — some people, you know... LeBron. He’ll tell you about his running suicides, his most rigorous trainings. You know what I mean? Because his formative years were spent this way. This is no different from me.
Ryan: But what I hear you saying — and maybe this is... Help me understand. The drug dealing was for money. Right? That was an entrepreneurial venture.
T.I.: Absolutely.
Ryan: But was the music an entrepreneurial venture, to make money? Or was it a chance to express yourself? Which was more important to you? Because the drug dealing clearly probably wasn't a passion. It's not a passion project.
T.I.: No; it wasn't. No. It was definitely the means to an end. But, at the same time, it was kind of like a summer job. You know what I mean? Like a teenage job.
Ryan: You needed some cash.
T.I.: Got to have it. And it was the closest thing available when I stepped outside my door. I started in the candy business.
Ryan: Is that right? How old were you?
T.I.: Fourth grade.
Ryan: What were you selling?
T.I.: Snickers; Reese's Pieces. You know; Hershey's. Chips; Now-or-Laters; Honey Buns.
Ryan: So, you were buying them for ten cents and selling them for fifty cents?
T.I.: See, this is the thing. I would go to Sam's Warehouse. My grandmama would take me. What I noticed was, in any set of apartments in any neighborhood — especially in our neighborhoods — there's always a candy lady. Someone to service you goods when you can't make it to the store. Now, for kids we’re like, “Man, now we don’t have to get a ride to the store. I could just walk three doors down. Go to the candy lady; grab me something I need. I don't have to wait on my mom or dad or nobody to get me to the store.” I noticed that when I went to school, there was no candy lady; and there were people that didn't have candy. They needed it throughout the day. So, rather than let them wait until they got back to the candy lady, I brought the candy to the school.
When I’d go visit my father in the summertime in New York, he'd send me back home. My father was rich; he was a millionaire — I mean, from the streets. But he was still a millionaire. He made it. He sent me back with a box full of school clothes, and he would probably give me $250 or something. But what I knew was, my mama was poor. She was on welfare; Section 8 food stamps. What I knew was, “I’m gonna have to stretch this $250 until the next time I see him, which would be Christmas.” So, I'm like, “If I just spend all of it, it's going to go. If I let my mama know I got it, she’s gonna ask me to hold it for me. So I have to sink it into an investment that will allow me to continue to produce passive income.”
Ryan: And you just thought of that when you were in fourth grade? Or did you have anybody who could talk you through it?
T.I.: No; hell no. This was my idea; just me.
Ryan: Survivor.
T.I.: What I did have was a grandmother who had a Sam’s Warehouse membership. So, my grandmama took me to Sam’s Warehouse — and, another thing I noticed: if I bought my Reese's, say a pack of twelve, from the grocery store, I might make 50% of my money. I might buy them for $3.99. Let me see. If I buy it for $3.99, or something like that — maybe it was $2.99 at the time — and I sell them for 50 cents apiece, I make about six bucks a day. But if I go to Sam’s Warehouse and I spend $9.99, and I get 60 — I make 30 bucks. You see what I'm saying?
Ryan: Yeah. Much better margins. Lower cost of goods.
T.I.: Right. So, I noticed this. I got my grandma to take me to Sam’s Warehouse, and we’d stack up. She’d be like, “What you gonna do with all that candy?” I’d go, “Just getting it.” Right? So, I started going to school. My goal used to be $20 a day. It's all I wanted to make; $20 a day, because $20 a day was $100 a week, and I could live off of that. I could save half. Save some, invest some back into the business, and keep some in my pockets.
So, it went from $200 a day to... I couldn't keep enough. I’m making $35 a day. $50. I had $50, $60 days. I was getting money hand-over-fist, because I was the only one at the school that was supplying people's candy needs. That was fourth grade. Fifth grade, I got a little more advanced. I started having people sell for me in other classes and stuff. And my teacher — I noticed how much security, and... how can I say this? Remaining private from teachers; that was the problem.
Ryan: Keeping secrets. Having nobody know it was going on.
T.I.: Yeah. Not blowing my spot. So, it was easy at first, when I had small quantities. $200 worth of candy? I could do that under the radar, no problem. When I felt great, I would try to get $100 a day. But then I had more inventory, which just meant I needed more room. I need space to keep it. And I can't smush it, because nobody wants a smushed-up Reese's Pieces or crushed-up Snickers — you know what I'm saying? So I had to figure all this stuff out.
I spent maybe the first six weeks of school hiding from my fifth grade teacher, Mr. Flynn — by the way, he passed. And then, by about six weeks, I thought I was slick. I thought I was under the radar. And he's like, “Listen; I know what you're doing, and you're not supposed to be doing it. But if you give me a Snickers every day, I’ll turn my head.” I said, “Well, there you go. Sounds like a deal. I’d have gave you two.”
Ryan: Haha! I’d have given you 10%.
T.I.: Ha, you know what I mean? So, learning all these things about, like, how to remain resourceful — I learned that from candy. And by the time I got to sixth grade, on my way to the school bus, I met a drug dealer. He introduced me to crack, and he showed me how to take $10 worth of crack and turn it into $30. Those margins were much better, and the money came much quicker. I got out of the candy business and into the dope business. So, from probably about 12 to 20 — I still dibbled and dabbled a little bit after that — but from 12 to 20; that was the lion's share of my career as a drug dealer.
Ryan: How did the sales process... how was it similar? When you talked about getting other kids to sell candy in other classes, what kind of margin did you give them?
T.I.: 20%.
Ryan: So, you gave them 20%?
T.I.: Yeah. You sell 5 dollars, I’ll give you a dollar. I mean, it's 20%. Most of them wanted to get paid in candy anyway.
Ryan: Right. Which, then, is cheap.
T.I.: Yeah.
Ryan: Because you're giving them marginal dollars.
T.I.: Yeah. Then I also had, like... how can I say? A ‘buy and sell used goods’ kind of business. You know how people dress out when they’re in P.E.? So, there were kids that would go around and steal. Starter Coach was the big thing. Starter Coach, G-Star, Triple Fat Goose, and stuff like that. So, kids who were cutting class would come to the locker room while the class was in P.E. — and you knew you had to dress out in PE, so you had to put your good clothes somewhere. Most kids didn't buy locks, so it was just clothes hanging around in the locker room. If anybody came into the locker room, and it's unattended, you can take whatever you want. There weren’t no cameras in there. And then people just come back and couldn’t find their coat.
So, I saw this was happening, and I said, “Hey, listen. I’ll give you $10 a coat and $25 for some Jordans.” I had like a little — you know, man — a little fencing gig.
Ryan: I was just going to say; it's fencing.
T.I.: This was sixth grade. But all of this was — I would get the coats. I never stole. I was never comfortable stealing. But the kids would get the coats; come to me. I paid them off my candy profits. I’d take the coats, and I’d go over to my grandmama’s neighborhood, where kids went to different schools. And I’d resell the coats.
Ryan: It's all about sourcing.
T.I.: Yeah. You know what I mean? That led me into the drug game. But all of that contributed to my mentality as an entrepreneur.
Ryan: So, now you transition to the drug game. How much — is it 20%. Did you recruit the same kids?
T.I.: I didn't ever have people working for me, selling drugs. I never trusted anybody with drugs. Candy was a little different. Drugs? I’ve just always seen it as, some people have to have it. It’s almost like you can't not steal it.
Ryan: So, you only were selling to people that you knew as a customer?
T.I.: Oh, no. I take that back. No; I sold to plenty of people that I didn't know.
Ryan: Did you think that they were all end users. You never developed a network?
T.I.: Well, they were all users. Now, I did create a network of partners. We put our money together, and we went and got more than we could buy individually on our own. We were all responsible for a certain amount to bring back, so we could go get more. But that wasn't them working for me, or me working for them. That was us partnering. It was a J.V.
Ryan: Yeah. Once you got the goods, you were responsible for your own distribution?
T.I.: Absolutely.
Ryan: And then you had to bring a certain amount of capital back to a co-op, basically.
T.I.: Basically.
Ryan: Right. Farmers do this kind of stuff all the time.
T.I.: Yeah. So, that's what we were doing. We would all, probably about six of us, go and get a key. Then we'll get it, and we'll bus it down. We'll bring maybe $12,000, or something like that back, and we'll get 2.
Ryan: So, while you're doing all this kind of business thinking — which is really survival thinking, right. You're surviving.
T.I.: I was really just trying to get money, right? There were very few opportunities, let's just say, in the black neighborhood. A lot of people wonder, “Why so much crime? Why so much stealing? Why so much?” Black people have never had enough just by working a 9 to 5 to cover the needs of their household — ever. They've never made enough — whether it's because they have higher interest rates on their homes; whether it's because they're being paid less for a job working the same hours; or, you know, whatever it is. Black people have never had enough.
If you get a white man to stay somewhere, and he works, let’s call it 40 to 60 hours a week? When he brings his paycheck home, he’s gonna be able to cover his bills. He’s gonna be able to handle a car, and take care of his food; all of his utilities; his mortgage. You're going to be able to deal with that, as long as you work 40 to 60 hours a week on a good paying job.
Ryan: Well, there's lots of working poor whites in America, too, right?
T.I.: Now. I'm talking about then. I'm talking about, like, historically, traditionally — there are now. I think that was the opioid crisis that did this; you know what I'm saying?
Ryan: Yeah. Fair.
T.I.: But I'm saying, back then, black people always had to make do with much less. And if you have much less... Another thing is, we were confined to a certain area. So many of us here — let's just hypothetically say, to just explain it in layman's terms: if you have 5000 people, and 3000 bottles of water... okay. First of all, it ain't about the money. The strongest, most influential of these people are going to make sure they have whatever water they need. Then the ones who can pay are going to make sure they have water. And then the rest? Y'all are gonna have to fight for what’s left. It’s about survival of the fittest at this point.
Ryan: Inside of this world that has a line around it; that’s what you’re saying?
T.I.: Absolutely. Because all we have available to us are the resources within the circumference.
Ryan: So do you feel like inside of that black community, the circle that you're you're drawing, there is a lot of competition — so, more competitive and less...
T.I.: No, it’s not competition. It’s dire need.
Ryan: Dire need.
T.I.: I mean.
Ryan: But, willing to fight each other for the resources...
T.I.: I mean, you have to.
Ryan: Survival.
T.I.: Man; if we lock these doors, and we can't get out, and this is all we have, eventually something's got to give. You know what I'm saying? We're all good, decent people. Fair. But eventually, something's got to give, right? It's four of us. We can't live off of hand sanitizer, tequila and one and a half bottles of water but for so long.
Ryan: That’s right.
T.I.: And as the time goes on, we're going to have to form alliances, and create contingencies. Me and you. That's right.
Ryan: He pointed to Sarah. Good move; Sarah would be the number-one choice for survival.
T.I.: I'm just saying, though. That's human nature. It don’t matter what color you are; it's the circumstances that’s creating it. It's the circumstance; it’s the environment.
Ryan: How old were you when you realized that the world you were growing up in wasn't the entire world?
T.I.: Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous. It was probably 1988. I’d seen Eddie Murphy. And I looked at how he was living. I looked around me. “I can't believe it. I thought I was rich all this time!” I had video games, and I had my little money from selling candy and shit. And I'm looking at this shit. I was like, “Man — a pool? People have pools?”
Ryan: At their house.
T.I.: At their fucking house. A garage? Oh, shit.
Ryan: With 12 cars.
T.I.: I'm just saying, man. He would walk around, very casually, very cavalierly; you know, “I’ll pay you a million dollars for that.” Man, that said, “There’s something out there for me. This ain't — uh-uh. That's for me, right there. That's where I'm going.” And I think that was... I hit a switch. My expectations changed.
Ryan: Did you imagine that you'd do that in entrepreneurial drug dealing? Or did you imagine in your mind that you'd do it in entertainment?
T.I.: I never thought that I would. Drug dealing was always temporary for me. I always knew — and I’d say this. “If this rap shit don't work, I'm still selling drugs till I make enough money to buy me a club.” You know what I'm saying? It was always like that. Pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps.
Ryan: That's right.
T.I.: You know what I mean? You do this to create some form of leverage; a step, until you can step up and do something better. But if not, you're just going to be sitting there — watching time go by; people go by; watching life pass you by, waiting for somebody to come and give you something. Or, you’ve gotta jump out there. You’ve got to jump out there and get it some kind of way. Ain't nobody like you can really go and get no start-up loans, as a young black person. You just can't, man. Like, no matter how great of a vision you may have; no matter how creative you may be; no matter how ambitious, or how well thought out your plan is. You can't go into no bank; into no traditional lending institution, as a black man.
I'd say, “Hey, man; I got this idea, man. Fontis Bottled Water. You know, tap into the creek right here. We have a system where we can get the water at the creek, and we can purify it. We can bottle it, and we can get it to people — if only we had $150,000.”
Ryan: There’s not any established capital.
T.I.: “Yeah, well, have you ever sold water before? Uh, I don’t know. How far did you go with your education? A-ha, 12th grade. Well, 12th grade where? Was it Ivy League? Woodward Academy? Oh, Douglas High School; okay, Atlanta public. Well, I don’t think that you quite fit the criteria.” Meanwhile, a white man with a GED would go in there with the same plan. “Let's put together...” He’d get 200,000.
And this is why we sell drugs. I mean, most of us. Some of us do it for a fashion statement. Some people selling drugs just to say they trade drugs for money. They ain't really... you know what I'm saying? They buy $5,000 worth of drugs; they sell $6000 worth of drugs; spend $1,000, and go buy $5,000 more worth of drugs. Know what I mean? Some people are doing it just as a fashion statement. Like, “This is what I do to kind of get by.”
Ryan: “It’s my job.”
T.I.: Pretty much.
Ryan: But I like the job because it has some status in the community.
T.I.: It has some status in the community. It’s good to feel needed. Some people do it for that. Some people do because they’re actually good at it — but they just don't put themselves in a position to advance, because they’re just trading drugs for money.
Ryan: Listen, if those guys grew up in New York, they might trade stocks.
T.I.: They don’t have to grow up in New York — because people in New York, who grew up in New York, are trading drugs for money the same way, even though Wall Street is right down the street; across the bridge, under the tunnel. But they still — because of their circumstances, and the environment...
I think it’s three things that plague our communities: the lack of formidable education, adequate opportunities, and significant exposure. Okay. The formidable education — they teach us in school, or at least in public school — they teach us how to be workers. They’re just producing more participants in the workforce. That's what they’re doing. Anybody with your own mind; you’ve got your own dreams; you got your own ambition; you’ve got your charisma? Man, public school ain’t for you.
Ryan: No.
T.I.: They are there to kill the confidence and ambition of future leaders, because — you’ve got to think about it. It’s funded by the government. The government don't want more leaders. They want more followers.
Ryan: That's right. I agree with that.
T.I.: Okay. So, whatever it is that’s pumped into this education system is only going to perpetuate the system that helps the government. So, if you’re trying to break this system, you’re gonna have to get outside that building. The more you prescribe to the policy of conformity, the less likely you are to succeed as an entrepreneur.
Ryan: Well, that's why you need anger.
T.I.: Or you just need arrogance.
Ryan: Sometimes a combination.
T.I.: I'm gonna tell you another story... well, let me finish this. Remind me about this story; I’ll tell you. Okay. Education. Adequate opportunity — without adequate opportunity, like we discussed earlier, people are going to be killing themselves in the streets for scraps, because there’s not enough opportunity to go around. You dig? And opportunity is going to be determined by who's most eligible; the opportunity is going to be determined by the education.
Ryan: For the opportunities that are prescribed?
T.I.: For the opportunities that are available.
Ryan: Right; the available opportunities.
T.I.: In this circle, there's only so much opportunity. And to step outside this circle, you have to be taught something different from the education.
Ryan: Fair.
T.I.: And if the only thing that this education makes you eligible for are these opportunities, and there’s not enough of these to go around, you’re stuck.
Going on to exposure. Okay; adequate exposure. Without adequate exposure to new and different things, you never know what's possible. If you ain't seen it, you can't be it.
Ryan: You only decided to deal drugs because you met a drug dealer.
T.I.: Pretty much.
Ryan: What if that guy would have been a real estate developer?
T.I.: You dig what I'm saying? Exposure is key, because that dictates and determines ambition.
Ryan: Imagination.
T.I.: Imagination, which turns into ambition. But we're leading ourselves to ambition. To dream to be something other than I am. In order to do that, you need to be exposed to something other than you are. So, those are the three things that plague our community.
Now for the story I was going to tell you about the education. I think, in my 10th grade year — but I was still in the 9th grade homeroom. School was never my thing. I was very smart.
Ryan: Clearly.
T.I.: I mean, I was extremely smart. I could do the work. I’d come in and I’d cut every class, Monday to Thursday; come Friday, I’d make a 100 on the test. That's just the kind of kid I was. Especially in math, and in language arts; vocabulary, spelling, and shit like that.
Ryan: Well, you learned all the math you needed through the sixth grade, just selling candy.
T.I.: Pretty much; pretty much. So, there was this year: 10th grade. But I was in the 9th grade homeroom. A semester, I failed every single class — including gym. But I made a 92 and an 88 in algebra and language arts. I got called to the office.
Ryan: They thought you cheated?
T.I.: Nah; the principal told me, like, “Man, you obviously do the work. Why won't you apply yourself?” I said, “Well, it's because you’ve got a building full of students who’re trying to figure out what they want to do. They’re trying to find their way. They kind of need y’all to hold their hand, and kind of push them through. I really know what I'm gonna do. I already know what I'm gonna do. I know what I need to do, and y'all ain’t teaching me how to do it here. So, what I'm gonna do here: I'm gonna take the things that I need from y'all, and I'm gonna let y’all deal with the rest of these guys.”
He said, “Now, get out of my office.” And I got out of his office. I got out of his office, ran out the back door, got on the bus, and went to the trap. But that’s what I mean. I felt like high school, for me, was a la carte. I’m gonna get the things that I need out of here, and I'm gonna leave the rest on the table, because I don't really need it.
Ryan: Right. But you were born with clearly a huge amount of common sense and street smarts.
T.I.: I was born on the streets. You can't spend that much time anywhere and not learn something. Wherever you spend the majority... if I were born on a football field, I’d win the Super Bowl. So, where I was born, I developed and learned from. I'm a culmination of my experiences. Where I was born — that environment — lent itself to a certain amount of formidable experiences. I used those experiences to develop myself into what I am today.
Ryan: So how old were you when you saw Eddie Murphy on ‘Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous?’
T.I.: Might have been ‘86, ‘87. What was raw? Maybe Beverly Hills Cop; right in that time.
Ryan: Mid 80s.
T.I.: Okay. Well, I was born in ‘80, so whenever that was, I was that age.
Ryan: So, you're probably, like, eight.
T.I.: Maybe.
Ryan: 8 or 9. And that expanded your imagination of what was possible. That's when you kind of realized, “I'm thinking too small.”
T.I.: Man, I didn’t even think. I ain't thinking. It was when my uncle went to prison. Because my pops was in New York, and he was rich. He lived in upper Manhattan; Upper West Side Manhattan. And when I went there, he had a full refrigerator. This man had Nestle Quik and YooHoo. You hear me? Listen, bro. He had Pepsi and Coca Cola. Like, bro; this man’s got it all. And he’s got all the channels on the cable channel. He had the scrambler box, where it was every channel — Pay-Per-View and everything. And I, at my mama’s house — cable? Psh. I had to learn how to steal cable for us to have cable.
Ryan: So you had to learn the electric.
T.I.: Yeah. Absolutely. I went out the back; in the apartment box. On an apartment building, it’s one box. And all the cables ran through that one box. So, I knew people that had moved out of the apartment. They don't need this. I’d plug it into my unit — and we had cable. So there's that. And then, there was almost always no phone. The phone was always the thing — where, “You know what? We can't pay the light bill, gas bill, and phone. So your phone’s got to go.”
Ryan: Yeah, I know what you mean.
T.I.: So, there was never no phone. And my momma didn't have a car. So transportation was a bit of a bitch. But we always had light, water, and gas. That's what welfare paid for; welfare paid for light, water, gas, and a little bit left over for miscellaneous — but not enough to pay a phone bill. Food stamps; that covered food for, maybe, two weeks. So, for two weeks, we were good. We were eating Captain Crunch; grilled cheese; bologna sandwiches. And then I stopped eating pork. So then my options shrunk.
Ryan: Why did you stop eating pork?
T.I.: Well, my uncle went to prison. He called me, and he told me everything. And I did this experiment. He told me to put a piece of raw bacon into some club soda, I think, and set it outside — then come back to it, and see what it’s going to be. It was worms. Maggots. I mean, not a lot of club soda. Maybe an ounce. Like, a little bit; maybe an ounce of it or so. You set it out in the window and watch what comes out. I did that, and then I was like, “Man, I’m never touching the stuff.” He was studying Islam at the time, so that was his motivation. I was really just grossed out by the experiment. So I was off of it.
So, two weeks of food. And then, two weeks — from the 15th to the 30th — me and my mama, we used to have to figure it out. Sometimes we had to sacrifice the gas bill, for whatever reason. So, okay, we ain't got no hot water. We had big bowls; put ‘em in the microwave. So I’d heat my water up before I’d go to school, in the microwave; wash myself up. Sometimes she would put the notice — well, not really put. But me and my mama kind of grew up together, I’d kinda say. She’d put the notice on the dining room table — because I used to go out of the... you know how they have the sliding glass door off of the kitchen in apartments? I’d go in and out of that door. And she put a final notice for the light bill; it might be 320-something dollars. And she was like, “Well, I’ve got 100 of it. If we don’t get it by 7:00, we’re going to be in the dark.” So I got to hit the streets — you know what I mean? I got to get it done.
And this was probably sixth grade. I was probably 12, 13 years old at the time. So, growing up like that, you just develop certain skills — and a certain fearlessness. “It ain’t never gonna get that bad again.”
Ryan: And if it did, you know how to handle it.
T.I.: Yeah. Exactly. Right.
Ryan: There's nothing worse that you can't handle.
T.I.: So, I used that experience to develop myself into an entrepreneur.
Ryan: So almost all the entrepreneurs I know have some level — I'm going to circle back to this, a little bit — of anger. They have their experience — whatever their version of watching Eddie Murphy on ‘Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous’ is, or whatever their version of waking up to the realization that they're thinking too small and that their life's not as good as they want it to be. They feel kind of angry about that.
T.I.: I was never angry, I don't think. I was anxious. I was never angry, though.
***
To read more of Ryan's conversation with T.I., continue with Part 2 here: Ryan Millsap Goes Deep with Clifford "T.I." Harris - PART 2
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