From National Lampoon to Ability Magazine - Ryan Millsap Meets Disability Advocate Chet Cooper

Ryan Millsap, Chairman & CEO of Atlanta-based Blackhall Studios, is one of today’s top entertainment executives! With a vision for Blackhall that’s ambitious, energizing, and boundless, Millsap is blazing a trail through the heart of the South – and setting his sights on the future of entertainment. Listen and learn as Ryan Millsap journeys through the myriad industries, people, and landscapes that traverse the complex and dynamic world of film production.

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Ryan: Welcome to the Blackhall Studios Podcast. I'm Ryan Millsap. I got into the moviemaking business by being a real estate entrepreneur, but also because I'm a big movie fan. I get a huge kick out of watching blockbuster movies that I watch being made at Blackhall. COVID-19 has put a temporary crimp in production — hasn't it for everybody? But some amazing movies will be shooting at our studio soon, and I'll have some amazing folks on the podcast.

I'm also into ethics and philosophy, and I think you'll see those themes throughout the podcast. So, you're wondering: where exactly does the movie business and philosophy come together? That's the journey I want to take you on on the Blackhall Studios Podcast. I’ll bring you guests from both worlds, and I think you'll be surprised at how much philosophy goes into the world of making movies. Plus, you'll get an inside look at the new Hollywood of the South right here in Atlanta, Georgia. Give a listen. I think you'll enjoy what you hear. I'm happy to have you along for the ride on the Blackhall Studios Podcast.

This week on the podcast, I talk with Chet Cooper, publisher and founder of Ability Magazine and founder of the Ability Corps Foundation. Working hard to create a new and enlightened vernacular, posture, and cultural understanding of people with disabilities, Cooper has worked for over 30 years as an advocate and expert in this arena. Continually crossing paths with presidents, corporate titans, philanthropic influencers, and curious journalists, Cooper is a natural disruptor who has tirelessly fought to educate, inspire, and motivate corporate America to hire and integrate their workforces with the highly capable and very often overlooked population of disabled people.

Reminding me in this conversation that anyone could face having a disability at any time, Chet Cooper is a sharp, effective advocate for change in America. I enjoyed my conversation with Chet Cooper, and I think you'll enjoy it too.

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Ryan: Hi. Welcome to the Blackhall Podcast. I'm Ryan Millsap, chairman and CEO of Blackhall Studios. Today, we are fortunate to have Chet Cooper, publisher of Ability Magazine and co-founder of the Ability Corps Foundation. Chet, welcome to the program.

Chet: Hello. Welcome to my world.

Ryan: Haha, I'm glad to have you on the program today. Tell us a little bit about how you got involved in the kind of work that you do with people with special needs.

Chet: People with disabilities? I mean, gosh. It's been... what time do you have right now on your watch?

Ryan: I've got 4:00.

Chet: Yeah, it's been 30 years.

Ryan: I walked right into that one.

Chet: I'll try to make it a short story. There's a lot to it, but there was an article written in Newsweek, back in about 1990, talking about the need for increasing employment of people with disabilities. And they were talking about the ready, willing and able concept of this.

I had, in a previous life, done a lot of work with startups and social entrepreneurship concepts. And I got a hold of this organization that was trying to figure out a way to deal with this issue. I started giving them the ideas of changing social attitudes, creating a designated system for employment of people with disabilities, and having some tangible connections to community to demonstrate people with disabilities and their talents.

So, as I was giving these ideas away, they kept pulling me back in, saying, “This is great, this is great, this is great. Can you help us move this forward; are you going to do this?” I never thought I would be doing it; what I've been doing for the last thirty years. I thought I was going to be able to just give the ideas and let other groups or other individuals take it. But here I am today talking to you about it. I couldn't let it go. I just kept building on the concepts that I had given them 30 years ago.

Ryan: Now, was any of this born out of your belief that you have a disability?

Chet: Everything that I have done has been about others, and not necessarily about my own struggles that I've had. I always have felt like my struggles are just my own, and I have a problem-solving temperament. So I solve those, and move on. But there are others that are less capable of solving an issue — whether it's depression, lack of support within their community or family. And so, all of my endeavors have always been looking at kind of a social benefit model. It wasn't about me, as much as trying to deal with changing systems to help others.

Ryan: Now, when I hear you talk about that, it makes me think of spiritual ideas. Are any of these ideas born from spirituality, or spiritual exercise for you?

Chet: I'm not smart enough to know that answer.

Ryan: Haha. I guess what I'm saying is, did you really just wake up in the morning and one day say, “I'm just gonna go help people?” Or is there a philosophy behind it? Is there a notion of the structure of the universe that you want to fit into?

Chet: I think it's intrinsic in people that have that concept — intrinsic in different ways of wanting to support and help. I think it's as simple as Myers-Briggs, or the Union theory of temperament — that we have those that believe in, “These are my marbles; don't take them away from me; they're mine,” and others that want to share those, and help others polish their marbles as well.

So, I think that the spiritual side — as in the way that most would think of it — no; I wouldn't suggest that. But, again, I made the joke, “I'm not smart enough,” in that I don't know what I don't know, so I don't know what moves me other than what I feel. It's always been in me. And I think there are other people like that — especially what we call social entrepreneurs — that still want to do business, and make a living, but feeling that there has to be another purpose to that. It just happened; I never thought disability was going to be my focus. If anything, I would have thought, probably, environment — since my undergrad was in biology.

Ryan: Well, and I think it's important for our listeners to know — when you say things like ‘helping polish the marbles,’ that you had a background as a publisher of National Lampoon.

Chet: I did. I published Lampoon for a few years — which, luckily, the media never caught wind that I was doing both Ability magazine, which is very politically correct, and National Lampoon, which is pushing over any sacred cow.

Ryan: Which is wonderful. You talked about the Myers-Briggs. Do you know what you are on the Myers-Briggs?

Chet: I'm pretty close to X, or Cross. I think I'm ENTP.

Ryan: I would bet, so, yeah.

Chet: What about you?

Ryan: I'm an INTJ.

Chet: Oh, really? I’ve gotta go. Bye.

Ryan: Haha. ENTPs are some of my favorite people on the planet. A lot of my friends are ENTP.

Chet: So, you're a J. Oh, that's interesting. But you're probably close, I would think.

Ryan: Oh, yeah. I'm not the kind of J where... My judgment comes out as, really, organization of thought. So, when you talk about intuitive people and a J, oftentimes you're talking about people that have a hard time leaving things out on a bulletin board as an idea. They want to categorize it, and they might shift that category around all the time. But it's really hard for them to just hold ideas in abeyance.

Chet: Yeah. Very good.

Ryan: And I experienced that. And so I've had to work really hard to, over time, just say “I don't need to judge that right the second. I'm just going to try to set it over here on the side.” Part of the beauty of learning Myers-Briggs is, you start to see the strengths of other people and realize your own weaknesses. And then, as you develop, you can take on those strengths of other types and start to learn how to address something that might be more of an artisan skill like an artisan, even though you're a rationalist. And then you can use your strength as a rationalist to really dissect things intellectually. But it doesn't mean that you're stuck, or trapped, the way that sometimes people will use the Myers-Briggs to try to pigeonhole people. I don't think that's really the appropriate notion.

Chet: No; I think that people that kind of draw people into a box like that are not understanding the benefits — just as you're describing them — of knowing. I try to remember it constantly, when I get frustrated with people doing things that actually can even harm them. But I have to understand that they’re ‘sensories’ — that they’re locked into the traditional way of doing things, and change is very difficult for them.

Actually, that's part of why I created part of the nonprofit in community service. I know that if people experience something — people that are sensory — they can change fairly quickly in their views of something. But if they don't have that experiential part, rather than the abstract part, then it's very difficult for them to change — because they don't like change.

So, one of the programs — the hallmark program that we created — was with Habitat for Humanity. We would do these around the country. The first project was called The Ability House, and I partnered with Millard Fuller, who started Habitat for Humanity. We built the first house in Birmingham, Alabama, for a Vietnam vet that used a wheelchair. It’s volunteer-based. We’re set up where we bring volunteers with disabilities to build homes. When we did the first one in Birmingham, 250 volunteers, with all types of disabilities, came out. First-time volunteers. We did a blood spill, and built the house in seven days.

From there, the models morphed a little bit, to a 50/50 model. That allows volunteers and corporations to come in, side by side, with some volunteers in the community with disabilities. Everyone's life changes; new awareness. There was one person on video talking about how he’ll never use the word disability again, after a specific home was built in Maryland; in Baltimore. Almost all of the volunteers that came out were blind. It's experiential for those ‘sensories’ — for those people that are listening and going, “What are we listening to?”

Ryan: So, one of the things that you're making me think of is — when I was a kid, I grew up with a father who was an ex-Recon Marine; Special Forces. On the Myers-Briggs, he's ESTP — just to give you a sense, of those of you that know Myers-Briggs. And in this case, it sounds like you do really well.

So, when I was growing up as an INTJ, growing up with an ESTP father, so often he would look at me and say things like he thought I was totally disabled. Right? Because I was living in a cloud of ideas, and he had his feet so firmly planted on the ground. But I remember that growing up; just thinking, “Okay, I don't feel like I'm disabled, but this guy treats me like I'm totally disabled.”

My dad and I have a great relationship now. We've talked about this many times, and there's no bad blood at this point. But did you have anybody like that when you were growing up — that made you feel disabled — even though, clearly, you're a very capable guy who's able to solve all sorts of problems?

Chet: One of the things that we try to do is bring out an awareness. An example is that we have people with disabilities building a home; very tangible. Some of these people have never even picked up a hammer, let alone can pick up a hammer. We give them other projects if they can't grab something. We figure things out as we go on these projects.

So, the word ‘disability’ is full of minefields; just that word alone. The idea that, when we go to a Habitat affiliate, and we say, “Here's what we're going to do.” They think — just as the language you just used, about how you feel like you're disabled — a lot of them are ‘sensories.’ And what the ‘sensories’ will think is, “Wait a minute. A friend of mine just fell off the roof, and now he's disabled. What do you mean, come back to the workforce, and into a workplace, and build something, if they have a disability?”

The word is, again, just too broad, and it means too much to too many people. It typically means ‘it doesn't work.’ We're here to say: that is just one aspect of one person's reality. If something might not be functioning the way, quote, “the norm.” But it doesn't mean the person themselves can't function. And so we always focus on ability. Everything we have in our collection of sorts is ability — Ability magazine, Ability jobs; the Ability job fair; the Ability Corps. They're all relating to the person's individual ability. And disability is just a part of that life experience; part of the fabric of their lives — actually the fabric of all our lives, because eventually, we all experience a disability in our own lifetime — they say, an average of 13 years, because of age.

So, some people are born with a disability; some people die instantly without any disability, because they might be hit by a or something. But the reality is that, because of age, we die. Our cells are falling apart as we speak. I feel like I'm getting older, anyway, as I'm talking to you. That’s a joke.

So as we go down the hill-shaped curve of life — you know, he's over the hill; she's over the hill — we start to fall apart more rapidly. Hearing goes; osteoporosis; cancer; all the things that eventually put our bodies into the ground. So, there is disability both in the beginning, as babies — we’re totally dependent on others, etc. And then we move forward to what we focus on:  people's ability, especially during the working age area of our lives.

So, when you say do you felt like a disability, I know what you're saying. It's not like I don't get it. But we try not to use that word in such a way. We actually have a program called ‘Turn Off,’ that talks about programmers and different people that use the word ‘disabled,’ meaning “to turn something off,” or “it doesn’t work,” rather than using other language. The word ‘disabled’ doesn't fit with our mission, and our change of attitudes around it. Does that make sense?

Ryan: Oh, absolutely. So, what's the language that you would encourage people to adopt when describing what, in a “non-awoken” conversation, I might call “disabled?”

Chet: So, I'm going to tell you. This guy minds the terminology around disabilities. You say ‘people’ first; “a person with...” And there's kind of a new movement out there now called Disability Pride. And they're actually saying “I’m proud to have a disability.” Some factions of the disability movement believe in that concept, and others are saying, “Well, if I have a disability that's regressive, and it's killing me, I don't know if I'm actually that proud of it.” So, there's a movement around here. It's all about civil rights, and social change, and awareness, and the celebration of the ADA through 30 years of the Americans with Disabilities Act.

So, I was invited by the U.S. Embassy and NYU to go speak in Abu Dhabi last year. And along with me is a young woman from Huffington Post, and we both are giving a three-day workshop to the international media on how to deal with disabilities in storytelling, and in language, and guidelines and terminology, etc. Do you say “he’s wheelchair bound” or does he “use a wheelchair?” All these things. She's a little bit more toward the “I’m disabled and proud,” and I'm doing the old-school ‘person first’ concept.

At the end of both of us doing our thing, they tell us that the United Arab Emirates does not use the word ‘disability.’ And nobody told us. So here we're trying to help them with language — and they changed it. As of that year, it's all ‘people of determination.’

Ryan: People of determination.

Chet: Yeah. So, they had their meetings, and they just didn't like the word ‘disability.’ They said, “I don't like it.” And they came up with that.

Ryan: How do you like that? I mean, you sound like a person of determination.

Chet: It's just really tough. I actually wouldn't have minded the word ‘handicapped.’ I wasn’t around at the time, and now it sounds bad for me to even say it out loud, because we’re so... It’s like using the R-word; how you just don’t want to say the word ‘retarded.’ Because everybody knows now not to say that.

And it's great. It was the N-word. We kind of get programmed into that negative word. But I don't mind that. Where that word, ‘handicapped,’ came from is giving an equal playing field — like, in horse racing, you give a handicap. You have horses, or golf, or other programs where it just means ‘equal playing field.’ But apparently, that got really negative before I was around in this area, because some people started to suggest that ‘handicap’ means “hand in cap,” and that means you're begging — which, I never found the sources on that. But the people who were coming into power before the ADA came about — they decided to use the word ‘disability.’

If I was there, I would have been voting not to use that word, but it is now. It's part of everything. It's a word that’s being used both for what we do, and also used for ‘not functioning.’ It's a very frustrating concept. So it's not easy for me to give you an easy “Here it is. Keep using this.” But for me: person-first language, if you can. And some people — again, Disability Pride — will say, “I'm disabled and proud.”

Ryan: You have an incredible amount of patience around these times.

Chet: Well, I was going to be a doctor, but then they took it away from me.

Ryan: Did you go to medical school?

Chet: No; it was a ‘patients’ joke.

Ryan: Ah! So good. Oh my gosh. All right; so, you have the patience to deal with all of this nuance. Where does that come from? Have you always been that patient Have you always had this much perseverance?

Chet: Gosh, I wish I was more patient. There was a person named Justin Dart who was one of the fathers of the ADA — the Americans with Disabilities Act. And everything he was talking about — in every way he talked to people — he looked at his patience, and he was always talking about love and working together. I just don't have that yet. I want to be there. I just don't have that.

Thank you for saying that, by the way. But I have a lot of bad days still. I get frustrated how we don't all work together, and how there's silos all over the place within this area of disability, because of funding sources for these different, larger nonprofits — or even smaller nonprofits — they hold tight to their control of their sponsors, in such a way that they forget that they should be branching out, helping bridge those gaps in those silos.

Some of them are starting to work together a little bit more. But if all of the nonprofits dealing with disability issues came together, it would be such a powerhouse. Literally — it's the largest minority in the country, and it's the only minority we might all join at any moment in time, because of an illness or an accident. It's an incredible force — if it really was one voice. But it's not.

Ryan: What holds it back from being one voice?

Chet: I think it's the concern about, if they got too close, that maybe a funder would move over and start funding another one. Money is such a problem with nonprofits. It’s their lifeblood. They can't move; they can't do anything without it. So they’re too gun-shy to do some more extreme things that might cause a lack of resources — financial resources.

Ryan: So, you think because they're competing for resources, then they don't feel free to work together?

Chet: That's my view of it. I don’t know why else they wouldn't.

Ryan: So, one of the ways that I have determined whether or not somebody on the Myers-Briggs is an intuitive thinker — an NT — is, I ask them: “How many times a day do you say to yourself something along the lines...” and usually, this would involve the F-word, but I'm going to forgo it in this. But just imagine. I would say, “How many times a day do you say something to yourself along the lines of, ‘you've got to be kidding me?’” Because I hear you saying, in a really patient voice, “you've got to be kidding me.”

Do you feel that way? Because you see the solution. You can see the answer right in front of you. And yet, for some reason, other people are unwilling to band together and do the solution that you can clearly see.

Chet: I've been in these trenches for so long that, even though I see it — sometimes on a daily basis — I guess I'm saying that without saying it.

Ryan: No; I can hear it. I can hear it.

Chet: Yeah. I remember, when I first joined the magazine, I had this back section called the Yellow Pages. We put all of these resources — but nothing on the scale of what we were doing. Ours was going on the newsstand; Time Warner distributed us. We had celebrities on the cover. We went into this with a marketing approach: that anybody looking at the newsstand would see an image of a celebrity and pick it up. The idea was, “Grab that magazine with that celebrity, and start reading it.”

Before they know it, “Huh. There’s a lot of stuff here about disabilities.” And so, it was our way of reaching our audience. Because when people say, “What's the demographics of the magazine?” I’ll typically say we focus on only 2 groups. We only focus on people with disabilities, and people without disabilities. Do you have a laugh track? Can you hear the laugh track?

Ryan: Haha. I've got one right here.

Chet: But the reality is, we wanted to actually reach more people without disabilities, to change their attitude. So that's where the celebrities came in. In the Yellow Pages, we literally put other entities that would typically think we're competing with them. And I would meet them. I would meet a publisher or something. They’d say, “Why’d you do that?” And I said, “Well, aren’t we all in this together? Aren’t we trying to change attitudes?” “Yeah, but...” They just couldn't figure out why we opened the door, and gave them free marketing; free exposure; free advertising. They just couldn't figure that one out.

Ryan: Well, see, it helps me understand how you can be publishing Ability Magazine on one hand and National Lampoon on the other, because you need an outlet for both sides of your personality.

Chet: It actually was a very interesting time in my life. The media never picked up on what was happening, which is really good. But there was a time we had put together the cover story for Lampoon. It was going to be ‘Scandal 101,’ and it was a professor teaching these people that, at the time, were all in scandals — from Michael Jackson, to Beavis and Butthead, to all the other names of different people that were there.

But the teacher was going to be Ted Kennedy. And so, the artist we had at the time — when he does these great pieces of art; these illustrations — he has this tendency to elongate the face. And so, when I looked at Ted Kennedy's face, it didn't look like Ted Kennedy. He's got these jowls. And so, we said, “That’s not working.” So we put Howard Stern in place.

Ryan: You said, “That's Bill Clinton.”

Chet: The week that that issue hit newsstands, I'm invited because of Ability Magazine to this very exclusive private dinner event. And I went into this fancy restaurant in Beverly Hills, and I’m being introduced — I'm shaking hands with Ted Kennedy. And I'm thinking, looking at him, “If you only knew — we almost had you on the cover.” Because they don't know that I was publishing Lampoon. And the only reason I took him off the cover was because of the artist. So it was one of those weird, surreal lives that people don't know I was living; things that were happening.

Ryan: A double life. Does National Lampoon still exist?

Chet: There's been a couple of things that they attempted after I left, but I don't know. I don't know what's going on with it. I haven’t followed it. They just had some major problems, and I left because the person that we had to deal with... if you know the history of Lampoon, it came from Harvard.

Ryan: I don’t. Can you give me the brief? The real brief?

Chet: It was originally the Harvard Lampoon, and then Manny Simmons got the rights to do National Lampoon from some of those characters — who, back in the day, became Saturday Night Live. So, there's this really great history of Lampoon. I come in just at the end of that, where a person named Jim Jameiro takes it over; buys the license in with the movies, etc. And they still had the magazine.

The magazine had floundered. They didn't know what to do with it. It got pretty raunchy with their humor. And when I took it over, I brought back some of the original writers; got rid of all the raunchiness; and it was just a challenge. But Jim Jameiro, I think, had some struggles; mental health struggles, actually. And he just kept blowing up the company, basically. I was the last person standing, and eventually, I said, “I’ll let you have it,” and closed it up. I didn't follow it after that. It was all downhill.

Ryan: What do you think the role of humor is in these days that feel so serious?

Chet: That's why I took over Lampoon. It wasn't because of the wonderful history — it's because I believe in humor therapy. From the beginning of Ability magazine, we've had a humor therapy section. Jeff Charlebois has been with this for, I think, 19 years. He’s been writing most of those sections of those pieces. And he's a sit-down comic. He's just an incredible funny person on stage or in writing.

So I think that the aspect of bringing humor at any time — but even more so when we have issues like what's happening in the world today, in this surreal ‘stay in.’ It’s affecting people in different ways. You know about temperament. I mean, there's going to be those people that have to get out, for their own sanity. If you don't have some humor — depending on, again, each temperament has a different way of looking at humor. But I think the core concept of humor therapy is solid. That is the benefit for all. It's almost like the benefit of exercise.

Ryan: How would you measure the success that you've achieved inside of this ability universe?

Chet: I use the metric system.

Ryan: Well, that's a good one. I mean, at least it's intense.

Chet: How do I measure success? Of the things that we've done?

Ryan: Yeah. When you look back, and you say, “Look at all we've accomplished,” which things would you say, “Wow, we've really been successful,” and which things would you say, “Man, we haven't really achieved anything?”

Chet: I do have a problem with the word ‘success,’ because I think, to me, it's a dynamic. There's always more. But I hope in my life that it will continue on when I'm gone; that it just keeps growing. But we know that we're making inroads. We built the first job board for people with disabilities in 1995; the first newsstand magazine. Actually, two years ago. Now we’re off the newsstand, and we’ve gone completely digital. You know, the kind of magazine that flips in form.

Ryan: What year did you get on the newsstand?

Chet: I think we were actually on the newsstand in ‘91 and ‘92. Even though we started in ‘90. It took us a while to get outside of the local market. There’s a whole bunch of fun stories around people saying that a magazine dealing with disabilities should not be in a food store. So we fought that to get into a national chain — get a national distributor — which turned out to be Time Warner. It's been an uphill battle.

Ryan: But before 1991, is it true there was no magazine focused on disabilities?

Chet: No. There were a couple, but they weren't newsstand, per se. One is called Mainstream Magazine. They existed; but their celebrities — the people on the cover stories, which they would consider celebrities — might be someone handcuffing themselves to a retail store that wasn't accessible.

Ryan: Got it. Okay.

Chet: But that's not what we were doing. So that's why we put them in our magazine — to give them more awareness that that stuff exists. It just wasn't the direction I was taking. Mainstream — they might be called the ‘trade publication’ of sorts.

Ryan: Yeah. No, I get that. So, you'd say, when you look back, one of the successes... I mean, obviously, what you're saying is true. Success builds on success. And the goalposts keep getting moved on some level. At least we can chalk up one win. You can say we brought national attention, through a national magazine, to this issue.

Chet: You mean National Lampoon? No. We did that. We created the first job board, which is the largest. Many, many people — their lives have changed, because they got employment through that job board. And actually, everyone we have on our team came from our own systems. We just hired a new I.T. person from the job fair. I think, actually, the last three people we brought on are from one of our career fairs. Do you know about the career fair? Did I tell you about what that is?

Ryan: You haven't told me about what it is. I know some about it. Why don't you tell us?

Chet: Well, thanks for asking. It’s the first accessible online career fair. We built it from the beginning of, “What happens if someone comes on that has a disability? How can they navigate an online career fair if they're blind, or they're deaf, or use other apps to be able to access the web?” So, one of the coolest things is face to face video. I mean, it's speech to text and push chat and audio. But if somebody happens to be deaf — they navigate; they click another button, and a third video appears, and it's a live sign-language interpreter.

It's been a great success. And because of COVID and social distancing, we are seeing incredible growth in that platform. We've had clients ranging from the IRS, to Google, to Facebook, to the Secret Service, to Wells Fargo. It’s just an amazing number of companies that are using the system.

Ryan: So, you think that the work-from-home COVID world might be a huge advantage for people with disabilities getting jobs they otherwise might not have gotten?

Chet: That's an interesting question. There is always a bit — depending on the type of disability — it could easily be some problem with transportation, whether it's extra cost or extra time. And so, having your office as your computer screen, or your ability to communicate — whether it's with a recruiter or working at home — I think has a bit of an advantage to everyone.

Now, you do lose some of that socialization, which some people, again — as we talked about, with the Myers-Briggs — might need more than others. But, with what's happening with COVID and the platforms we've developed, I think there is oddly an advantage here, for this time space.

Ryan: Where do we go from here? Like, you've been doing this for over 30 years.

Chet: I was thinking... just some island or something.

Ryan: Well, the Bahamas is closed to Americans. I think the only island we're allowed to go to of substance is Hawaii.

Chet: I don't think I could even get into New Jersey now.

Ryan: Not if you're from the South. I don't think they’d let you in. So, you've been doing this over 30 years. What would you hope to see 30 years from now? What would be the things that you would hope that society has changed about their approach to the disabled community?

Chet: I’ve said this from the beginning. I would love to have everything we built not needed.

Ryan: Right; where it was just totally superfluous, because there was so much integration.

Chet: I never would have imagined that this would have gone on 30 years to begin with, at the beginning, because I didn't think I was going to be a part of it. But let alone, there's still the same challenges. Even as you were using the term ‘disability.’

Ryan: You thought people would learn more quickly. You thought, “We'll make a magazine, and we'll teach these people about the realities of things, and they'll get it. And then the magazine might be superfluous.”

Chet: Absolutely. I've always thought that awareness, depending on temperament, takes some time. And, as you know — because it sounds like you know Myers-Briggs a lot — measuring 70% of the population, essentially. So, I know there was a huge uphill battle dealing with attitudinal shift. But it's just always amazing how integrated we are with these unconscious biases that exist; these implicit biases of everything from what we talked about with you and the language — looking at this, and how it disrupts the concept of bringing people with disabilities. But also, it's into true integrated society; inclusive society; inclusive workforce.

Actually, the latest program we're working with is called Ability E — Ability Entertainment. AbilityE.com. And we're now building a massive pipeline of talented performers; actors with disabilities; to put their profiles online, so casting and studios can access that database. So that film and television and media can start having more authentic people with disabilities in what we see every day in their lives. And that will change society's views as we start seeing this.

You can see that other diversity movements have been affected in that way. Disability is the last frontier in this area. So, we've met with all the major studios and demonstrated what we're doing. And the way that came about is, Netflix last year came to us and asked for some support, and said, “We’re producing this show. We want to authentically have two of our leads have disabilities.” They found the young boy, and they're now looking for a 9- to 13-year-old girl that authentically used a wheelchair and spoke English. They went to the normal channels, and they would literally find ten auditions.

So, we used Ability Magazine and Ability Jobs, and put that call out. We sent them close to 500 auditions. So, from that — of course, one of them was cast. Her name is Sophie Kim. And with that, her life has changed. Her family's life has changed. And now, young people that are watching that show that may look like her — using that chair, etc. — can see somebody that represents them. But other people see and say, “Wow, she's having to use a power chair, but she’s this wonderful, young, talented person.”

And so, we're pushing that hard to get people from around the world to put their profiles up. It's really fun to see how it's growing. And that will change the way of casting. Typically, casting has said, “Yeah, we'd love to cast. We don't know where to find talented people.” And so we're going to change that.

Ryan: You probably remember the television show in the late 80s, early 90s — “Life Goes On.” How did that affect you when you knew the character Corky — I believe he had Down's syndrome.

Chet: Oh, Corky, right.

Ryan: How did that affect what you guys were doing? Did it have a positive effect; a negative effect?

Chet: Well, I never liked the guy to begin with.

Ryan: Yeah.

Chet: Corky’s a great guy. How it affected us — we're kind of working at a different level than knowing that kind of thing. But without Corky — and Norman Lear had the show with Geri Jewell. He was the major force behind bringing the first real... beyond Corky — Geri Jewell being the rock star of a person with a disability on a major sitcom.

Ryan: You're talking about “The Facts of Life?”

Chet: Yes, yes. Thank you.

Ryan: Yeah. Right.

Chet: So, Corky's a character. He's got a band. He’s a wonderful guy. Geri has been a friend for... I don’t know how many years. We actually brought her into the United Nations one time, when we were having a panel discussion there. There's a lot of great people who have been doing a lot of great work. It's a movement, for whatever reason, that has not moved the needle as much as we would like — at least, as I would like. And then you have “Breaking Bad” with R.J. Mitte. He also has CP. You know that character?

Ryan: Yeah. Of course. Fantastic.

Chet: All of the characters — only 2% are people with disabilities portrayed on TV. And out of that 2%, some of those aren’t people with disabilities that are playing that part. So, you have that other thing about authentic representation. Part of what Ability will be doing is also having a big enough casting talent pool that they could start hiring talent with disabilities for other parts that are not called out to have a disability.

What about David Hall, who was on CSI? He was the coroner. People didn't even notice it. He didn't have legs; doesn't have legs, still. But he would have these roles where he'd be a judge — as a judge, you're sitting on the bench and doing your thing. So, there are there are plenty of roles out there that, if the writers don't feel comfortable with somebody using a chair in the scene, you'd put an actor in there that might not have to. But what we want to do is get them used to it. If somebody happens to be in the scene that has a disability, they don't have to call attention to it, or say, “How come that person is blind, right there? What's the backstory?” We want to get to the point that it's just part of society.

Ryan: Because your experience is that people with disabilities don't want that called out. They just want to be treated the same as everyone who doesn't have a disability.

Chet: I always try to look at it like... My disabilities are hidden, so it's not an issue of how people project to me — other than my poor humor. For example, if all of a sudden you're using a wheelchair, how people would be looking at you. You would still want to say, “Hey, this is me. This is just a different form of mobility. Don't treat me different. I still have the same capabilities as prior — just not using sneakers to walk. I'm using these wheels.”

Ryan: Interesting story on that, though. About four years ago, I had a really bad ankle injury, and I had to use a cane for 4 or 5 months. And it was fascinating to me how much kinder people were everywhere I went. They noticed the cane. They noticed that I was struggling, and they went out of their way to help me in any way they could. I'd never experienced anything like that in my life.

Chet: Is that why you still use a cane?

Ryan: I've never given it up. I mean, after I experienced that... No.

Chet: I had a friend that I used to travel with around the world, and... oh my gosh, he was so sick of that mentality — of that extra kindness. He was getting on a bus somewhere; I don’t know where we were — and the bus was not accessible. He’s kind of a macho guy, so he gets his wheelchair, strips it apart, and throws it up on the stairs of the bus. And then he muscles himself up the stairs. Somebody that was in the bus, wanting to be a nice person and absolutely wanting to help — gets behind him and grabs his shoulders. And my friend came so close to punching the guy out.

He just had such a chip on his shoulder of people not asking; people just thinking “You need help.” And he didn't feel he needed help anywhere. And so you have that mentality of “Oh, poor you.” And that's another problem within our society. We always say ‘ask first,’ — not just take it upon yourself.

Ryan: So, what you described as extra kindness... I experienced the extra kindness as incredibly encouraging about the love of humanity.

Chet: If you had it your whole life, you would start to say, “God, enough.” You're experiencing this short window of time — and you're right. That's the wonderful part: there are good people with good hearts. I get that. But for that purpose — just because you're perceived to be in need? One reason we do the volunteer program: it's better to give than receive. We don't let people with disabilities give. And so that the component of feeling good — because they want to feel good, too, because they're going to help you. Right? And that’s all fine.

But it's because of that perception — which also causes problems in employment. “I’d really like to give him a job. But, you know, he's got a disability. Okay. This may cost the company some money. So let's not go there. Let’s just go with the person I feel more comfortable with.” And if you felt comfortable with that person, and you really saw that there might be some help that's needed? You say, “Hey, you need some help?” Then that's fine. And you move on. It's not a pity approach... Am I beating you up?

Ryan: No, I'm loving this. This is fascinating to me, because I think it's. I am by nature, someone who loves distinction. I love to notice all the differences of all kinds of people. I am totally comfortable with disabilities, and abilities, and struggles, and virtues and vices. But yet, I want to categorize them, and catalog them, and observe them. It's part of my nature.

Chet: It's the J in you.

Ryan: Yeah. And I'm an observer by nature in life. The part that's interesting to me is that I feel most at home if we can be really, really candid. What I hear you saying is that people with disabilities want you to say, “Hey, I see your disability. Would you like me to help you, or do you got it by yourself?”

Chet: Yeah. Just ask.

Ryan: Yeah. So, it just brings it out into the open; puts it on the table. And everybody then communicates what their needs are, the way we do with our emotions. We then do that with our physical abilities. Is that fair?

Chet: Yeah. And, you know, there's a little bit of a pushback in my mind as you're saying that. As if I'm categorizing all people with disabilities, thinking the same way — and, of course, we know that's not the case. And temperament falls into all of these things, and in other issues in life, and diversity within disability. So, there's a whole bunch of nuances and layers in this.

It's one of the reasons that’s kept me involved all this 30 years; three decades, my gosh. It's that I love a challenge. And this challenge is ever-going. It's just so wrought with issues, and again, nuances. When you get into it, and start looking around, and you see all the aspects — from issues of technology, issues of socialization, transportation, employment and travel. We have something we're working on with a group in Spain about accessible tourism. It's just mind-blowing: all the things that are out there still needing major change and efforts to increase people's happiness in life.

Ryan: Chet, we're running out of time.

Chet: Okay, bye.

Ryan: Haha. It took me an hour to get your humor, but now I'm right there with you. If people found the things that you were talking about to be compelling, and they wanted to know more about Ability Magazine — all the other things that you're working on — what are the best places for them to go to find you on the web?

Chet: Well, I was going to give them my home address.

Ryan: That's fine, too. Cell phone numbers work well. People love to text.

Chet: Yeah. So, abilitymagazine.com, abilityjobs.com, abilityjobfair.org and abilitycorps.org. And Ability Corps is spelled like Peace Corps — c o r p s. It’s a French word. That's why the S is silent.

Ryan: Chet, your work is the work of a stalwart. It's amazing; your perseverance.

Chet: I never got to ask you any questions. Tell me. Tell me about the studio.

Ryan: I'd be glad to. The studio is in South Atlanta. We're on Moreland Avenue, about 15 minutes south of Inman Park. It sits on 100 acres; we’re 850,000ft² under roof. The facility is purpose-built to accommodate the needs of the biggest productions in movies and television. So, some of the things that have been made here that you would know might be Venom, Godzilla, the Jumanji movies, and Jungle Cruise, which was with the Rock. That was supposed to be the biggest movie of 2020, but it got delayed because of COVID. HBO made an incredible new show that's coming out soon called Lovecraft Country. So, it's a movie and television studio at the kind of highest level internationally in the English-speaking world.

Chet: And how does that relate to the podcast?

Ryan: Well, mostly, it relates to thinking about how entertainment fits in with the rest of society. Just like when you were talking about having people with disabilities on television shows, and in movies, and what an impact television and movies have on society's norms — and the general zeitgeist about what people think is the foundation of society. And really, specifically, that relates to the ‘sensory’ people that you were referring to — that are 70%, or 80%; whatever the number is — but let's call it 70% of society. 70% of society is waiting to see something normalized before they accept it.

Chet: Right. I love the fact that you know this stuff, by the way.

Ryan: Yeah. Well, it's part of understanding how human beings make decisions. And you can't be an entrepreneur unless you understand how your customers make decisions, how your capital partners make decisions, how a government makes decisions. My background is almost all real estate. And real estate is all about understanding how decisions are made by the customers that are buying products at a particular location, or the customers that are renting apartments, or the customers that are leasing apartments, or the government that's approving what you can build. And so, understanding people is essential to the success of my business.

Chet: Well, all business, really.

Ryan: All business. Completely.

Chet: Are you doing anything in Los Angeles?

Ryan: We are, actually. We are in the process of building a huge studio in LA. It's top secret where the location is, but it's a massive facility. It's about 1,000,002ft². It's a $250 million build. And it's going to be something that nobody's built in LA for over 50 years.

Chet: And what’s your part of this?

Ryan: Well, I'm the owner.

Chet: The 250 million — that’s not yours, personally?

Ryan: No, no. I have a capital partner that's actually based in Los Angeles. And they're my capital partner for all our global expansion. We've got 400 million in development in London, where we're building over 50 soundstages — almost a million ft² of soundstages; about 2.2 million ft² of total space. We're tripling our size here in Atlanta. That's another $150 million worth of buildout. And then we've got this massive facility in LA that we're working on.

Chet: Would you compete against Tyler's place in Georgia?

Ryan: We do — but in a slightly different way. Tyler's place, primarily, is for Tyler to make movies. And then a secondary use of his facility is for other people to come and make movies. Whereas our facility — our primary use is for Disney and Sony and Warner Brothers and all these other guys to come and make movies. We're really the outsource manufacturing of film, the way that China has been a manufacturing base for American products for decades.

Chet: Did you know Millard Fuller?

Ryan: I didn't.

Chet: He was in Americus, Georgia — down a bit of a way from Atlanta. But then Habitat moved to Atlanta, I think,

Ryan: I think I know his name through, I believe, the Carter Center.

Chet: Yeah. So, did you get to know the Carters?

Ryan: Well, I've met President Carter and his wife, but I don't know them. They're not friends. We don't text.

Chet: Yeah. He's been an avid supporter of Habitat from the beginning. And then, Rosalynn — she's been on the cover the magazine before, dealing with mental health issues.

Ryan: They're incredible people. I just recently was invited to be on the board at the Carter Center.

Chet: Oh, really? Nice.

Ryan: And I'm just so impressed with everything that they've done over the years.

Chet: It sounds like you're a busy person.

Ryan: I'm trying to make the most of the time I have.

Chet: Yeah, life is short. I'm sure you're thinking that as well. There’s so much you can do, and so little time.

Ryan: Well, every day is a gift; there's no doubt. I mean, none of us know the days that we have. And as you said — I thought, really profoundly, earlier — having a disability is something all of us could encounter at any moment in our life. From a car accident, to a disease, to who knows what. It could put us in a wheelchair, or make us blind, or make it to where we're deaf, or we had a learning disability, suddenly. We could lose our cognitive functioning. And all of that in a blink of an eye.

Chet: I don't want to go into it — I know we have to cut this short — but, at some point, maybe we could talk about my experience with Christopher Reeve, and how he transitioned after the accident from his state of mind. I got to meet him up at his house after the accident. He came to become an actual advocate. In the beginning, people with disabilities were so upset with him, because they felt like he was bringing everything back tens of years — because he kept talking about wanting to walk again; to be a whole person. You don't need to walk to be a whole person. I helped him with that transition. But it took a while. And once he realized... It's a long story, so I won't go into it now.

Ryan: Well, no. I mean, I'd love to do an entire podcast just on that. I think that's really fascinating.

Chet: Yeah. It's a really interesting storyline. And, sad to say, a couple of the people that I put together with that particular interview have passed away. But their lives are incredible — just to talk about what they've done.

Ryan: Can we do that next week? I'd love to explore that.

Chet: Sure.

Ryan: Good. Let's do it next week. We'll dive in, and we'll do an entire podcast on Christopher Reeve and his story, and his transition from a person that would clearly be perceived as Superman to a person who...

Chet: Look at the irony of that. Yeah.

Ryan: Well, great. All right, Chet. Thanks for taking the time. Let's do it next week on Christopher Reeve. This was fantastic. I really enjoyed it. I can't wait till next week. This is Ryan Millsap, and this is the Blackhall Studios podcast.

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Ryan: Putting an exclamation point on the end of each podcast, I share inspirational sayings that I write and share on Instagram. “Sometimes you lose, but the courage to go for what you truly desire is worth it, no matter the outcome.”

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Thanks for listening to the Blackhall Studios Podcast with Ryan Millsap. We want to hear from you! Find us on SoundCloud, iTunes or Spotify, and follow us on Instagram at @Ryan.Millsap.