Ryan Millsap, Chairman & CEO of Atlanta-based Blackhall Studios, is one of today’s top entertainment executives! With a vision for Blackhall that’s ambitious, energizing and boundless, Millsap is blazing a trail through the heart of the South – and setting his sights on the future of entertainment. Listen and learn as Ryan Millsap journeys through the myriad industries, people and landscapes that traverse the complex and dynamic world of film production.
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Ryan: I'm Ryan Millsap, host of the Blackhall Studios Podcast from Atlanta, Georgia. I'm an entrepreneur mostly by necessity, because I have massive authority issues, and also by constitution – as the entrepreneurial life is filled with things I love: freedom, adventure, creativity and imagination. When I began this leg of my journey into the entertainment industry, you may find it interesting to know that my background before this was all commercial real estate.
And then I built Blackhall Studios as a specialty real estate project for production giants like Disney, Sony, Warner Brothers, and Universal to have a place to ply their skilled craft of production. I'm from Los Angeles, but I moved to Atlanta six years ago. I've done business all over the world, and I know few places with the dynamism of Atlanta. It's a world-class city with a huge economic future as a center of commerce for a global economy. On this podcast, we get local and global and talk to people who are inspirational, sensational, sometimes motivational, but at all times somehow tied to the ecosystem. That is the culture and business of entertainment as it relates to Blackhall Studios
Today I'm in conversation with two amazing entertainment industry veterans. First up is Mark Wofford. Mark runs PC&E Production Consultants and Equipment. This employee-owned company serves all productions happening in Georgia, from film to TV to advertising. Some PC&E projects that you've probably heard of: Stranger Things, The Walking Dead, The Resident, Legacies, The Avengers.
Mark Wofford is a chill dude, and I say that because film production is not a chill business -- but having a calm, organized approach is the key to his success. And in the time of the coronavirus, with the tough business decisions being made, Mark is a pro. If you're coming to Atlanta to film, first, you need to film at Blackhall Studios. And second, you need to work with PC&E, and the all-knowing, all-problem-solving savant, Mark Wofford.
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Ryan: Hey guys, welcome to the Blackhall Studios Podcast. We're doing it all remote. And I know it's been a really fascinating, bizarre ten days in the entertainment industry. Mark, how are you guys holding up?
Mark: We're hanging in there. I mean, clearly, like you said -- the past ten days, pretty much all the jobs stopped at once. All the shows that had our dollies out shut down and returned the dollies. Last week, we were fortunate enough to have a couple of jobs scheduled in the stages: commercials that were 1- or 2-day shoots that were able to shoot and finish their work.
A lot of stuff got... not canceled, so much as just postponed by the client, and pushed forward hopefully to a later date. And we were working with customers, you know -- if they were going to be on the stage and a shoot canceled, we charge them a minimum amount of money as a cancellation, and then we're going to apply that to the job when it comes back as a credit. So it's not going to cost them any more, because it wasn't their fault.
Ryan: Yeah, no; I hear that. But you guys obviously are in a difficult position from a revenue standpoint, along with a lot of small businesses. If you would, share what you guys are thinking -- how you're approaching this; whether or not you'll be seeking out some of the SBA loans that the federal government is, I think, passing today. They're trying to, anyway. But what do you guys think, and how are you handling it? I think there's probably a lot of people listening who are in a similar position and trying to figure out what to do next.
Mark: Well, as a company, we have about 30 employees. We’ve always been fairly conservative financially. So, at least, we have a decent amount of cash on hand. So that's not an immediate emergency like it is for a lot of smaller companies. I have friends in rental house businesses across the country, and some of them are already devastated because I think so many small businesses operate at such a narrow margin that any break in revenue can be devastating.
Ryan: But particularly a 30, 60, 90-day break in revenue is just unsustainable for the majority of businesses.
Mark: Absolutely. And that's why I've been monitoring closely the Family First Act, which passed last week. It had a lot of potential benefits for employees and small businesses. The Senate voted last night and approved their bill -- I just downloaded the full 880-page text to share it with our board and a few of the other people here. And I'm sure we're going to be digging into that all day long to see if there are some opportunities out there for companies.
Our goal is to try to keep the business viable, obviously, as long as possible and to keep the employees employed -- because at some point, the work's going to come back, and it's either going to come back slowly and start building, or it's going to come back quickly. And we need to be in a position to be able to serve the needs of our customers, because that's also a major concern: so many of the businesses that we service depend on us for the success of their business, too. It's such an interconnected web. And it's fragile. So, it's a day-by-day thing. We're looking ahead, planning out scenarios; like, okay, “what if, what if, what if.” But just kind of seeing it unfold day by day.
Ryan: Well, the entertainment industry I think is going to come back really hard and really fast. I mean, if you look at what's happened in the last ten days with Netflix subscriptions, which have just shot up -- Disney Plus subscriptions, which have just shot up -- I know that Showtime has had a huge bump in their online subscriptions. And so, what's happening is, people are bored, and they're seeking out online entertainment. But that pipeline which is now being consumed is not being refilled. And so, everything that I'm hearing is that on the other side of normal, there will be even greater need for supply, which is the creation of entertainment.
Mark: That's the thing about our business -- and, obviously, our business, the entertainment business -- there's so many small businesses that can never recover the work that has been lost at this time. You know, if you're a dry cleaner, it's not like people are stockpiling their clothes and are going to bring them all in and have more clothes to dry clean. You can't make up certain business. But like you said, with the creation of content, there's so many creators; there are so many crew members willing to work. There's so much equipment available. It's going to be a wave, I think, that'll crash over everyone. So that's kind of different about our business; what we do. I think that that’s how we are fortunate in that regard, compared to the losses that so many people are suffering.
Ryan: Yeah. I mean, the immediate, obviously, is very bizarre, because the entertainment industry -- the creation of entertainment, the making, the manufacturing of entertainment -- is not something that can be done remotely, right? You can't gather actors and actresses and directors and producers online and somehow get them to create quality content. You can do funny stuff, like what Jimmy Fallon's doing, live from his house. There's things where it’s like, “Well, we're not doing nothing.” But at the same time, for the quality content, people need to be in the same place. We're not making widgets with robots. We're making high-quality human content that requires a high level of intuition, emotional engagement, creativity, communal thinking. On-the-spot, instinctual moves that you just can't replicate from a distance. People need to be together to come up with that kind of creativity.
You know, the other thing I'm hearing, Mark, is that people that have been making content overseas are rethinking that -- especially the stuff that's outside of English-speaking countries. So, you know, I think London would be considered, maybe, less “overseas.” But all the stuff that's taking place in Europe and Eastern Europe -- a lot of those people, at least from what I'm hearing, are rethinking that position and imagining that, on the other side of this ship being righted, they will try to bring those productions back to the United States. Are you hearing similar things?
Mark: I have not. So much of what we do is in the commercial world, anyway; it's hard for us to gauge some of that bigger content -- the longform kind of content -- because we're not a major player in those regards. It’s clear from watching everything that everyone's doing -- you know, how many musicians are posting live performances -- that people need art more than ever at this time.
Ryan: No, no, I see that. What kind of things have you seen in this time at home? Are you enjoying it? I mean, what's been your posture? Let's set aside the pandemic; the reason I ask this is I've actually been loving my new lifestyle. It's unbelievable. Now, that's setting aside the pandemic and the possibility of economic collapse. But assuming we're not going to have a Great Depression, and assuming we're all not going to have a terrible experience with the virus, I've been just absolutely loving this quality of life at home.
Mark: My day-to-day hasn't changed significantly. I've worked -- you know, other than on the weekends -- every day in the office for the past two weeks, and I've come in every day this week. Our controller has come in; our kind of accounting department. I've been here. So, in that regard, what I'm responsible for doing every day hasn't changed that much.
You know, I kind of feel a greater responsibility, because more so than ever, the responsibility of looking after the 30 people that work here, and feeling responsible for them, weighs on my mind. It's just, you know, I see fewer people. So I'm making sure that I walk outside, and get fresh air, and take care of myself, and do a walk -- and last night, I went over when I got home, and my neighbor and I sat in his driveway at a safe distance and, enjoyed a cold drink and good conversation.
My wife and daughter -- my daughter's a recent college graduate who was fortunate to find a job that she's able to work from home now -- they're both working from home in different areas of the house. So they're trying to make sure that they focus on what they need to do, and also on themselves, and take some time to take care of the soul, if you will. It's been strange. Traffic this morning was remarkable.
Ryan: Yeah. I had to go actually into town yesterday to meet a reporter -- to talk about what's going on economically, and what's going on in the entertainment industry. We had to meet at Blackhall, and the freeway was just completely empty. Unbelievable. And then, of course, Blackhall is a ghost town right now. So it's such a weird environment to drive into -- a place that, on a busy day, we might have a thousand bodies running around, creating content, doing cool stuff. The place buzzes with activity. There's, you know, hundreds of semi-trucks, equipment everywhere. You go into stages, and they’re alive with energy. Guys are building sets: people are filming... whatever.
And right now, it's just crickets. Absolute emptiness. It reminded me, actually, of times before we actually opened. When I was building Blackhall, and I would walk around. I remember two months before our first production, and we were scrambling to get finished, but the place was substantially complete. There were a lot of details that had to be worked out, but it was substantially complete. And I remember walking around this gigantic facility -- empty, gigantic facility -- thinking to myself, “Am I absolutely nuts that I just built a movie studio in Georgia?” Then I was like, “We're going to find out.” Then we opened, and we haven't been empty really at all in over three years.
And so, to go back and be able to walk around the place empty -- even though it's a weird time, it was very nostalgic for me, because it's been a long three years. I mean, we've accomplished so much so fast that three years has felt like a decade. But what made me think of that is, you were talking about the care of the soul. And this time really is like a time of reflection. You know, I've been thinking about how much our society would benefit if every year -- and this may sound crazy -- but imagine if, every year, we all took a month off. Like, we just agreed that we were going to shut society down. I guess the Europeans kind of do this in the summer, but we've never really had anything like this.
Imagine if, every April -- since here we are, coming up on April. Imagine if, every April, our society said, “Listen, we're going to all pay each other to shut our lives down. It's going to be national debt. And we're going to just take on a month of inactivity in order to care for our souls. I think we'd be a better society if we did stuff like that. Are you experiencing that? I mean, it sounds like your daughter is, and your wife.
Mark: Yeah. I don't do a lot of personal social media; you know, Facebook. But I've always tried to share music with people that I find meaningful, because one of the things that touches me is music. Seeing a singer-songwriter or a band, or hearing a piece of music -- not that I have any musical talent whatsoever. I'm an excellent listener. And I'm a really good fan. Other than that, I can't play anything. I should never be allowed to sing anything. But it’s like, “this is what touches me. Hopefully it will touch you.”
I think people are being forced to be reflective, and some people are, I think, doing a good job at that, and doing it well. And really, like you said, they're taking care of themselves. Some people, I don't think, will ever learn the lesson of taking care of themselves -- and that's sad. It’s sad for them, and it’s sad for us as a whole in that regard. But it's amazing.
Ryan: Let's take a step back and talk a little bit about this. Tell the people who are listening about your career arc and some of your soul journey in that -- and share with us kind of the background that got you to this place where you're running an equipment company in Georgia.
Mark: Yeah. Well, I'm a Georgia native, born and raised. I grew up in a small town in northwest Georgia -- a little town called Menlo, up in Chattooga County. Went to a public high school, graduated, went to the University of Georgia. At that time -- the early 80s -- I thought I wanted to be a director. I wanted to be the next Steven Spielberg at that point. And the University of Georgia didn't have a deep film program. I think we had one class where we actually shot with film cameras. That's what I wanted to do.
I took a playwriting class; met my now-wife in that class. We've been together now 32 years. I started trying to freelance. I wanted to freelance. I wanted to work in production. I knew not a person in Atlanta, and I wanted to try to start meeting people. And I eventually found a job as a production assistant; worked as a production assistant, met someone who needed a production coordinator. Met someone who needed a second AD -- an assistant director.
Ryan: Is this in the 90s?
Mark: This was in the early 90s, yeah. Commercials have always been healthy here; it’s a great commercial market. So, I freelanced in production. I was trained as an assistant director by a gentleman named Jerry Pece, who is, I think, the best ever. Not only in terms of being a first AD, but in terms of being a good human being. So, he trained me as an assistant director. I freelanced for 12 years. My wife and I had a couple of kids. And having a 12-hour day be a reasonable day and being a good day -- you know, coming home after a 12-hour day and going, “Wow, we only work 12 hours today” -- was beginning to wear on me, especially with young kids.
So I took a staff position at the film lab in town, called CineFilm. That was the motion picture lab at the time. I did sales and customer service. Not a great salesman, I realized, but it was good. I didn't realize at that time how much film came from all over the country into Atlanta for processing, and then was shipped out for transfer. I worked there for six years, and then had an opportunity to come to PC&E -- who, when I was in production and rented equipment for companies from LA as a production coordinator, PC&E was the company that I would call. They were my go-to source.
Doug Smith, the founder of the company, needed someone who could come in and move up through the ranks; someone who could look after the business, because he was transitioning out of the day-to-day operation. So I had a chance to, to come here, which is great because it was like a homecoming. This was always my favorite place, anyway, and it always had a great reputation. It always was like the hometown community center; that’s what one of my friends described it as, for the industry in Atlanta. And so many people that now work in the industry had come through here.
So I started working here. And that will be 15 years ago this this fall. I just worked alongside everyone. I had knowledge of production from being an AD. I had knowledge of post-production from working at the film lab. And I knew a little bit about a lot of stuff. So I was able to kind of connect with our customers and understand why they had the issues that they had, and then try to relay to them how it worked from our side, and understand how it worked from their side.
Hopefully, people that knew me from freelancing trusted that I had their best interest at heart. And then, trying to represent the needs of the company -- you find out amazing things once you actually are inside a company, like how hard it is for people to do what we do on a daily basis and how hard everyone works to make every single job for every client be the best possible.
Ryan: Well, I know how passionate you are about Georgians in entertainment. What percentage of the people that that you're working with every day do you think are Georgians today? I mean, that’s always a big question in the entertainment industry in Georgia. And how do you imagine the future -- like, let's set aside the pandemic, and let's set aside whatever economic consequences. Let's just imagine that the world was continuing on the incredible trajectory we'd been on. Talk to me about Georgians in entertainment, and how you're imagining the future looks here in Georgia.
Mark: You know, the reason I think we were able to capitalize on the success of the incentives in a large portion was the deep crew base that we had. And we've always had a great crew base. Back in the late 80s, early 90s, a lot of the films that either came here or were being filmed elsewhere -- there's a lot of crew members that had to leave here to go work on those films. Long-time people, and the camera department; grips, electricians, costume, whatever. They were all able to come back to this market. So we've always had a really healthy appetite for hard work, I think, and doing a job well. And that's enabled us to create this amazing infrastructure that has worked so well.
So then, looking ahead -- like, okay, all bets are off. You're not thinking about everything that's happening right now. Let's just say we're able to continue forward. I think we're poised to start fostering that generation of creatives better than we have ever been before in the past -- because, up until recently, if you wanted to be a filmmaker or a writer or a director, you had this desire that you needed to go elsewhere to to do it and to get the experience. And now, you know, with the Master of Fine Arts program that's going to be introduced at UGA in partnership with Pinewood; with what's happening down at Pinewood; with what you and I have had conversations about -- what you want to do. And I have friends that teach high school -- teach high school filmmakers -- and just the caliber of work that those kids are doing... it gives me hope, you know. This is going to continue on. We're going to continue to provide great service for Hollywood. And then we're also going to be able to provide that same great service for Georgians.
And then, it's not just going to be people who grew up in Georgia and have gone to Georgia schools. Hopefully, people will start moving to Atlanta. We’re a gaming Mecca for a lot of companies. And I think hopefully we'll start doing that. We've always been a great hotbed of the music industry. So for me, it's logical. We're going to start enabling content creators on the visual side with those same opportunities.
Ryan: So, let's imagine I can hand you a magic wand, and I say you can wave this magic wand and make the entertainment industry into whatever it is you dream over the next five years inside of Georgia. Now, we're going to put some restriction. You can't have trillions of dollars unless you can get that written into the economic stimulus plan that's being passed. But let's say you had reasonable expectations. Paint me a picture of what you'd hope to see five years from now in the entertainment industry in Georgia.
Mark: Five years from now, I would have the commercial market being as well recognized as the long-form -- more of that. More films, more studio spaces -- and more accessible space, not just for the blockbuster films or the films that get the attention of everyone -- the big, major tentpoles -- but mid-size or independent filmmakers having access to good technology and good studios. Smaller films, medium-sized films, around the state. But then, also there being a large element of it being self-sustaining, so that independent filmmakers and writers have a mechanism by which they can get experience.
They can have a work produced; they can have it created; it can be released. It can be Georgia investors. People will recognize the value, from a financial standpoint, of what we do -- what we all do -- and turn that around. And for our business to continue to grow. We're always looking at other opportunities. In the past couple of years, we acquired a smaller lighting and grip company for me and the other employee owners of the company, since that's what we consider ourselves -- we’re an ESOP; we’re employee-owned. And we're always looking at ways to grow the business. Not just more of the same, not just a bigger inventory of the latest equipment, but something different, something new. Hopefully, we would be able to do that. We'd be able to grow, and need more studios, because there's still much commercial work being done.
Ryan: I love that. Well, we're running out of time. But in this in this time of social distancing, everybody being at home -- obviously, social media is even more important than ever. And people keeping connected. I know you said that historically you haven't had social media. Do you have any? Instagram? How can people find you if they want to hunt you down online?
Mark: We have a Facebook page. We’re actually working on coming up with some short videos that we would be able to post on our Facebook page, so that people can see, like, what's a dolly? How do you use a dolly? Or what do you have in sales and expendables? What are sales? You know, all these different kind of scenarios. And talking about our new Bolt-X.
At the beginning of the year, we took possession, ownership, of the first high-speed cine-bot, called the Bolt-X, east of the Rockies. There's only one other robot like it, and it’s in LA. And the one that we have is on track; it’s the only one on track in North America. And it's an exciting possibility for us. It's a brand-new piece of equipment, and it opens us up to a whole new line of work that we look forward to continuing once we get past all of this that we're going through now. There's a lot of opportunity on the horizon, and I look forward to being there -- to all of us being there -- and to seeing where it takes us.
Ryan: Well, good. Hey, Mark, thanks for being on the program today. Good luck with everything you guys are doing. Hang in there in this weird time. I know we're going to come out all stronger on the other side.
Mark: All right. Stay well.
Ryan: Yeah. You too.
Mark: And thank you. I appreciate it. Good talking to you again.
Ryan: My pleasure. Talk to you soon.
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Ryan: Onto the second half of the cast. Again, I'm Ryan Millsap of Blackhall Studios. Thank you so much for listening to the Blackhall Studios podcast. Now I get to have an amazing, pumped-up conversation with a woman you could absolutely call the Queen of Atlanta Hip-Hop. She's a legend. LaRonda Sutton's roots and music go back to the early 80s in Los Angeles, where she was hired and mentored by music's iconic Mr. L. A. Reid. Unbelievably, in this podcast, LaRonda tries to gloss over her signing of the groundbreaking band Destiny's Child like it's no big deal -- when Beyonce was just one of the girls in a little band -- and how she signed Oscar winner Jamie Foxx way before his Oscar, as well as discovering the then-unknown high school talent Outkast.
LaRonda nurtured and promoted other killer bands that helped lay the foundation for the glistening, modern production houses that live in this city in the South. LaRonda Sutton is someone you should know -- and you will. Thanks for listening. This is the Blackhall Studios Podcast.
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Ryan: LaRonda, welcome.
LaRonda: Thank you so much, Ryan. I'm happy to be here. It's a great time -- and thank you.
Ryan: Well, I appreciate you doing this while we're all quarantined. It's kind of a fun outlet to be able to have conversations like this in the midst of being holed up alone.
LaRonda: You know, I'm doing pretty well. I'm here at home. My daughter is grown, so she's at her place, also in Atlanta. So every now and then, she'll come and visit. But I'm like, “You know, you're younger. You might want to stay away a little bit. Wash your hands when you walk through the door. Who are you hanging around?” With COVID-19 and all that's going on, and really kind of strange and stressful times, I never would have thought about doing this type of thing -- this podcast type of thing. I work from home anyway, but to have everyone else on the same page, it has been really different, and really kind of surreal. You learn something new -- and that's what's happening for me. I'm learning new things every day, especially about Zoom conferencing and all types of stuff.
Ryan: Well, I mean, Zoom has become something that all of us are learning about. All of these new technologies, about how we're going to stay connected from a distance. This is kind of a side note, but I'm really fascinated to see in the entrepreneurial world what comes out of this from a disease-fighting standpoint in all our homes. Like what is the next luxury item? Is there going to be a pandemic machine that people pay to have in their house -- a ventilator?
LaRonda: Right.
Ryan: And whatever other things that then become part of this pandemic machine, or this pandemic room. And then how is the air handling going to change in our offices, in our homes? Are we going to now all pay much more attention to air filtration that fights disease and viruses and airborne illness, et cetera? I think there's going to be an entire industry -- kind of a biotech technology industry -- that emerges in a much bigger way on the back side of this. I think our lives are going to change in many ways, and some of the things that we buy are going to change in many ways.
We’re right now at the studio working on a protocol similar to 9/11 airports that had to develop an entire new protocol for security. We're developing an entirely new protocol for health. Because now our workplace suddenly has become a place where people are concerned about who they’re working around. No different than you talking to your daughter, right? I mean, what a weird world.
LaRonda: Yes, it is. And to have to implement that because she's out and about -- just to know that. Ryan, you said our lives will be changed, even down to the smallest things. I think about even new fashion -- as I look on Instagram, and I see what's going on. Like, the new mask, and new clothing, and how people want to dress in the midst of this when they're going out. What is the new kind of work uniform? What is the new uniform -- am I going to have to wear a mask every day? What is that?
Ryan: No, but those 1920s gloves, up to your elbow, might suddenly be back in fashion before you know it.
LaRonda: Exactly, exactly. I remember those because I used to have to wear those to church. It was awful.
Ryan: I mean, that stuff might be coming back, right? I was at Home Depot the other day, and there was a guy in front of me, and he was wearing full-blown goggles and an aeration mask, like he was spray painting a car inside a small room. Right?
LaRonda: Absolutely.
Ryan: So now, what are the fashion versions of this kind of wear going to be? I love this.
LaRonda: There was a show filmed in Atlanta on HBO with Regina King. It's a futuristic show, right? And so, when you look at it, you see really what we're evolving into, because that's what I believe that the media and television and film does for us: they kind of forecast. They introduce ideas to us that we look at as entertainment. But really, at some point, there's a possibility that these things could exist. Right. And so, Watchmen -- that's what the name of the show was -- when I watched it, the police were in full-on masks. That's how they moved through their every day. It's just a sign of the times that now, when you watch that, it doesn't seem so foreign.
Ryan: On that point, I read an article just the other day. It was an article I read in military news -- the military right now is so much a part of our life, because they're trying to figure out how to deploy forces to help us with all of this viral containment. So I got this notice, and it was about how, in New York -- I think it was 550 police officers who have Corona.
LaRonda: Oh, yeah.
Ryan: And so, you start to realize, like, there's all these people -- the police officers, the nurses, the doctors, that are on the front line of this. I mean, it's like a war going on. It's the war against this unseen foe, right? We don't even understand all of the power of the enemy. We got suddenly attacked, and we're just trying to gather enough information to even know what to do next. And it's easy for us who are quarantined to forget that the people on the front line -- they're fighting a real war that has real consequences.
I'll give you another example about that. A buddy of mine is an E.R. doctor, and he's 62 years old. He's been down in Florida, quarantined. But he's like, “Listen, I'm coming back to Atlanta, and I'm going to have to do E.R. work at Grady, because they're running out of bodies. And the reality is, 100%, I'm going to get sick. There's no chance that I'm not getting sick.” And he's going to go walk into that warzone knowing that, on the frontline, that's going to happen. That kind of heroism, in the midst of this -- I think it's easy to forget. This is not a joke out there.
LaRonda: And then you think about... usually, when we go through things like this, what is the knee jerk reaction to this coming out? Like I said, a part of that is that there’s innovation. But the other side of it is, should our policemen be wearing masks from here on out? What are the new protocols for just moving forward -- like you said, in your home, and working with folks? And so I think working from home is going to be the new way. I think once people realize that it can happen, I think it's going to be a lot more of that.
Ryan: Do you think any of us... maybe we had some friends who were germaphobes. I haven't been a germaphobe in my life.
LaRonda: I am, a little bit.
Ryan: You are, a little bit. So, before this, did you venture out to the world and feel like, “All right, I'm going to go out and see people. I'm going to be in open space. There's all kinds of craziness out there. I’ve got to get ready; prepare myself.”
LaRonda: Well, I started out dealing with a lot of people, because I used to go see a lot of shows, and I always attended a lot of conferences -- being in the music business, and being in entertainment. I had a thing about being around a lot of people anyway; that was just because I was in Los Angeles.
Ryan: You loved it? Or you didn't like it? What do you mean?
LaRonda: I did not love it -- for a couple of reasons. I did not love it, even though I love my job, I love what I did. But I did not love being around a lot of people like that, because growing up in California, and being in L.A. in the early 90s, people would get together -- a lot of crowds. Someone would act stupid. Next thing you know, you have a stampede, right? You're there for music. People are drinking, so it would be a stampede. So just for that reason alone, I didn't like big crowds, because you just never know what could happen. Also, I was traveling a lot.
So I started using this stuff, and all my friends thought I was crazy. They were like, “LaRonda, I can't believe you. You're such a nightmare.” But it was from Doctor Schultz, who's in Culver City in Los Angeles. He made this elixir called Air Detox. So whenever I was around, people I would spray Air Detox.
Ryan: He also makes that really amazing green, juice-like mixture. You know, the Doctor Schultz, like, algae mixes.
LaRonda: Yes. So, I would use the Air Detox. I'm traveling; I'm spraying my area on the plane; I'm wiping it down. I'm at a basketball game, and there’s a kid behind me with a runny nose... I'm going to spray the Air Detox around me.
Ryan: So, thirty days ago, people would have laughed at you. And now you might become the new normal. Now, everybody's like, “Wait, wait, has this plane been aerosolized? Has this plane been fumigated?” Right? What is going to be the new protocol for getting on an airplane? I was talking to some guys recently who were trying to help develop this technology for Tyler Perry.
LaRonda: Yeah.
Ryan: And, you know, Tyler is sensitive to germs. I don't know to what level, but he has something there. And so, he is exploring, trying to figure out, “how do I fumigate the spaces before I show up so that I know that this has been detoxed and there are no viral bacteria of any sort?” Right? So, who's going to be the next billionaire who invents that; who really solves that?
LaRonda: Yes. Like, can I roll in some type of air detox bomb and air out everything. The fumes come out of it, or whatever it is, and it cleans up everything -- and you’re good, from a germ perspective. I can imagine.
Ryan: I was talking to a buddy of mine about this. He was in New York, and he said the first guy who comes up with a way to fumigate a cab in between rides is going to kill it. Right?
LaRonda: Right? Cabs, Ubers, everything.
Ryan: Well, he said Uber almost put taxis out of business. If taxis can solve that, they’ll put Uber out of business.
LaRonda: Right!
Ryan: The swings are wild; the psychological swings. The world has no more or less actual danger, right? Because there's always been plague in the history of humanity. But right now, this is going to be a generation of kids, and everybody, that this is going to mark our lives the way September 11th marked our lives.
LaRonda: Absolutely. And I remember there was a photo, or there was a clip, of when President Bush was out shaking hands, and he asked for the hand sanitizer. He started wiping his hands. And the world was like, “Oh my God, I can't believe he did that.” Right? It was on the news. It was just a huge pushback. They kind of villainized him, because he was a germophobe -- like a lot of us are today, right now.
Ryan: This is the time for two people. It's for the people that were preppers -- who were preparing for the possibility of needing to live in their homes for 30 to 60 to 90 to 180 days -- whatever. But they've got food for a year and water for a year. This is the time of the prepper. They're all like, “See? I knew it!”
LaRonda: Exactly right.
Ryan: And it's also the time of the hypochondriac, right? “I knew it!” We all know that a dead clock is still right twice a day. So it’s not necessarily that they were so prescient -- but they are living in a moment in time where they feel really, really justified for all the things that they've done up to this point. And their way of life is going to have an impact -- or the rest of society is going to shift closer toward their way of life, going forward.
Let's take a step back. I want to hear a bit about your journey in the entertainment business and the music business, and some of the early stuff that really impacted you when you knew this was going to be a career for you. When you were like, “I love this business.” Share with us some of that journey that got you to this place today.
LaRonda: It's so funny, because, just talking to your producers and the people that you work with -- Sarah and Port -- I let them know that I feel the entertainment business found me, and that my track has been amazing thus far. And it's like having your own fingerprint. I couldn't say to anyone, “The same thing could happen to you. You could go down this path.”
I was born in Kansas. I was raised in Northern California. I went to college at Wichita State University, and I knew I never wanted to work a traditional job. I knew I wanted to travel, and I knew I wanted to meet people. I had an aunt -- it's always kind of like, you have a relative. I had an aunt who was in the entertainment business. She was Sammy Davis Jr's personal secretary. She did that for a very long time. And so, she would fly in to visit us in the Bay Area from Los Angeles. And she just was magnificent. That's all. That's the word I can use to describe her, because when I would see her, it was like, big hair and fabulous glasses and amazing fashion. I would look at her and I'd say, “Well, whatever that is, I want that.”
So I started my first industry job in 1988, as an assistant to a guy by the name of Jay King, who managed a group called Club Nouveau. And I also went to high school with the lead singer of the band. He was based in Sacramento, California.
Ryan: Did you grow up in Sacramento?
LaRonda: I grew up in a little town called Vallejo, California. So Sacramento was not that far. Sacramento, Fairfield, Vallejo -- that's like ‘The Trinity.’ You're right. You know, once you cross the Cardenas Bridge, that's your track, right?
Ryan: That's right.
LaRonda: And so, when you pass UC Davis, you know, go a little bit out of the way -- about 15 minutes out of the way -- you end up in Napa. So, that's where I grew up.
Ryan: Well, a little-known fact: I spent two years of high school in a little town in the San Joaquin Valley called Manteca.
LaRonda: Oh my goodness! I know Manteca! Absolutely.
Ryan: Yeah. I actually just recently reconnected with buddies of mine from high school in Manteca that I hadn't talked to in 25 years.
LaRonda: Oh my goodness. Don’t you kind of love when that happens? When you get to talk to folks from a long time ago -- and, like, did they turn out the way you thought they would?
Ryan: I mean, kind of exactly like I thought they would, you know?
LaRonda: Okay.
Ryan: There were, like, seven of us that ran around together. Three of us left, three stayed, and one, nobody knows where he went. So he must have left, but nobody would know. But it was fascinating to see the difference between the lives of the people that went out and about, and then the lives of the people that stayed close -- like, very intricate, important members of their community, in that small town.
LaRonda: Exactly, exactly. And they know everyone. That's kind of the same way for Vallejo, for me. I knew that I was going to blow this popsicle stand. So I took the first job opportunity I got to leave. And don't get me wrong, I call it ‘my little itty-bitty city by the water,’ because it's one of the most beautiful places in the world. Northern California is stunning. And so it's one of the most beautiful places in the world, but even if you go there today, it hasn't changed much from when I graduated high school. It's kind of stuck in a little zone there.
Ryan: Right. Outside of Stanford and Silicon Valley, that area does feel kind of stuck in time.
LaRonda: Yes, it does. And so, I just knew that there had to be something bigger and better out there. And so, I worked for Jay for a couple of years. And then while I was with Jay, I met a guy named Duane Meadows. He was a manager of a lot of hip-hop -- early 80s rap and hip-hop groups. He gave me an opportunity to be his assistant, and I moved to Los Angeles and went to stay with my Auntie Maggie, who was the one that worked for Sammy Davis. So, I went to L.A., and I made the leap. And I worked with Duane. He managed Rodney-O and Joe Cooley, and Egyptian Lover -- and I ended up working with their company, West Coast Record Distributors.
They had JJ Fab and LA Dream Team -- like, World-Class Wrecking Crew. A lot of early, really kind of groundbreaking hip-hop on the West Coast. And then I started my career trajectory as a music publisher. And in 1990, I was given an opportunity by Pat Lucas and Jody Gerson at EMI SBK Music to run the studio, and I just kind of worked my way up as a music publisher, from, from the bottom.
So I started with the songs, and I learned contract administration. And then I moved on to be a creative director, and being able to acquisition catalogs. And so I did that with Tom Sturges at Chrysalis Music. I worked with L.A. Reid after Chrysalis. I moved to Atlanta in 1996, because at Chrysalis I had signed Outkast and Goodie Mob and Roy Heirs and Montell Jordan -- lots of great groups, because they wanted to start, you know, more of a monster.
And L.A. Reid wanted to know who signed Outkast, out from under their nose. And they offered me a job to come open them with a publishing company with L.A. in Atlanta. So I moved to Atlanta the first time in 1996, and started Heco Music out of my apartment.
Ryan: Did you just blow through the idea that... did you sign Outkast?
LaRonda: Yes, I represented their copyrights and so I helped them as a music publisher. You know, your job is to exploit the songs, protect the songs, do administration for the songs, and really just look after the intellectual property of the songwriter.
Ryan: And so, were they who brought you to Atlanta?
LaRonda: Yes, they brought me to Atlanta. So, first it was Outkast. I had a cousin that lived here; her name was Danielle. She got the LaFace Records Christmas CD. I was in Los Angeles at the time. She sent the CD to me, and she said, “Cousin, you’ve got to listen to this. It’s just great.”
I listened. They had the song ‘Player’s Ball’ on there, and what I loved about ‘Player’s Ball’ was that it was melodic -- because at the time, in hip-hop, there were a lot of what they call loops. They were just sampling loops. But on this record, there was real musicianship; real instruments. You could actually hear the wind on tape. So I thought, “This is refreshing.” And then, lyrically, what they were saying was amazing -- and it had melody to it. They brought in the singing hooks, and it was just, “I love these guys.”
So I flew to Atlanta and met with a guy named Ian Burke, who introduced me to Rico Wade of Organized Noize. He was their producer. They introduced me to Antoine and Andre -- Big Boi and Andre 3000. And they hadn't even graduated high school yet -- so they were really young.
Ryan: Prodigies, though.
LaRonda: Total prodigies. And so, I would actually go to the original Dungeon, up under Rico's house, with the red clay, and listen to music. I am this publisher at this company in L.A., I'm coming to Atlanta, and I'm going down under someone's house with red dirt. It was an amazing time and experience. And I would be the only woman, surrounded by all these guys listening to this music. I ended up signing Outkast, and looking after their copyrights, and hooking them up with John Singleton to do the Higher Learning soundtrack. And so many different opportunities at the time.
I was there when they did their first show in New York, and when I performed at the Source Awards. And it was amazing. Then, that led to signing the Goodie Mob, where I worked with Bernard Parks and Kasim Reed, because he was the attorney for Goodie Mob at the time. So I did that, in Atlanta. Here, we became the largest major independent publisher in the Southeast, because we had time. Destiny's Child, and Anthony Dutton, and Ezekiel Louis, and a kid named Rafael Brown who wrote ‘In My Bed’ for Dru Hill. It was just an amazing time. We started in 1997, and that ran till about 2000 for me.
Ryan: Think about this. So, the dynamism of Atlanta is something that people who aren't from Atlanta or who haven't lived in Atlanta don't really understand. I have teams in London, L.A.; we do a lot of business in New York. We're all over the other big, international English-speaking cities. And most people have no concept of the dynamism of Atlanta. Share with the people listening some of the things that make Atlanta so special in this regard. Like, the hip-hop scene, the energy, the vortex of creativity that actually exists here.
LaRonda: I remember my first trip, coming to Atlanta to meet the group Outkast. I just felt an energy when I got off the plane. It just smelled so good, with all the trees and everything -- was just beautiful, right? Then I get into the city. At this time, I'm going from studio to studio to studio -- just meeting writers, finding out what's happening on the scene. And one of the most amazing things that I realized is that they all know each other. Like, they went to high school together, or “my grandma is his grandma’s sister.” It's a very family kind of structure around the hip-hop scene at the time.
What I noticed is that that, in a lot of different camps, all this new creativity is bubbling. But I also noticed that you have a lot of people beginning to come in from the region -- because LaFace Records had started here, and that's who signed Outkast to their record label. So, you had two giant talent magnets in the music scene, and they were huge. So for L.A. and Babyface to start their company in Atlanta -- that was a big deal. They were the biggest producers at the time. For them to come here -- that said, a lot about Atlanta.
So, now you have the talent magnets here. Now a whole universe begins to move around them. They're attracting people from the region, and from all over. And now they're strong enough to bring in artists from L.A. and New York and overseas, that they're working with, into the city of Atlanta. Then, once you get here, you realize, “Wow, I can create and live and do the things that I love, and live well doing that.” That was the big thing. So, by this time, they had the Lenox Mall, Phipps Plaza -- and it was studios everywhere.
Ryan: Well, and such a high quality of life. It's hard for people from L.A. or New York to understand the high quality of life that is Atlanta.
LaRonda: Absolutely. I was raised in California. I lived in Los Angeles for a very long time.
Ryan: Me too, yeah.
LaRonda: For me to be able to come here -- my lifestyle translates, right? Because there are a lot of things that a lot of my friends from L.A., and even myself, were a little high-maintenance. Restaurants and shopping; living, and all of that, is important. Right? And I found that here.
What I also just loved about it was -- it was, I felt, a new city. Because, historically, they’d burned Atlanta down; they had to build everything back up. So everything looks relatively new here, right? To me, it felt good. It had the things that I needed to sustain my lifestyle. And I got a big bang for my buck. So, you begin to bring all your friends in. And it just really kind of spread. So that was the energy coming from Atlanta. And there were hit records, right? It was worldwide hit records, with TLC and Toni Braxton, and everything that Dallas Austin was doing, and what Jermaine Dupri was doing -- in this small area, because Atlanta is 600,000 people. The metro's bigger, but Atlanta’s about 600,000 people proper, right? So different from L.A..
So in this small area, you had juggernaut writers, producers, artists. Everyone was working with each other, and it just began to leave Atlanta. You had arteries coming here, like Sony Music. You had Atlantic Records here. There were a lot of outside income streams coming into Atlanta, moving out the creative intellectual product that was coming from here.
Ryan: There's an openness energy here that reminds me -- it feels like the West Coast, in the sense that the West Coast has been accustomed for generations to people moving to the West Coast. From the very beginning, when the West was a gold rush, you've had these waves of people trying to make new lives on the West Coast -- no different than you had on the East Coast when all the original European settlers were coming in.
But it's just now been more generations on the East Coast, so the West Coast has been the place people go. Atlanta retains this kind of West Coast frontier feeling. I feel, I experience, openness to outsiders -- not necessarily always culturally, because there is a Southern culture that is very hospitable but isn't always easy to break into.
But there is an openness about Atlanta itself, because Atlanta is so accustomed to having so many people move from all over the place to come and make Atlanta home. It has this kind of international, multicultural melting pot feel that, I think, creates an energy that is unlike most other places in the world. They just don't have this level of melting pot.
LaRonda: They don't. And that's what our Beltline is. Our Beltline is built on the rail system. So it's always been a transitory kind of place. You always came through Atlanta, or you're flying through Atlanta, or somehow Atlanta was always a stop, right? Once you get here... one of the things I know a lot of people from the East and the West Coast think when they come here is, “There's so much potential. I can do this.”
Then the ideas just get going, and they start their business -- or whatever their endeavor is. They end up here, and they end up loving it. I mean, once you get here, in a strange way, it's just like, “Welcome home.” You feel like you're coming home.
Ryan: No, I, I agree with that. I'm a West Coast kid. And when I got out here to Atlanta, I just started to feel like, “Wow, this is an amazing life.” We don't have anything like this on the West Coast. I mean, we have beautiful amazing things there...
LaRonda: You have water. If we had water...
Ryan: It wouldn’t even be fair. We’d have the population of New York. But then, if we had water, we might not have the same quality of life.
LaRonda: Exactly.
Ryan: One of the things that makes Atlanta so magical is that you get all of the benefits of a major metropolitan area and all the benefits of really dynamic, interesting people. And then, life feels free if you're from L.A. or New York.
LaRonda: Right. Exactly. I’ve always thought, living here, “if I made L.A. or New York money, I’d live in Atlanta.” I’d live in Atlanta, and I’d make L.A. or New York money. That was the thing for me.
Ryan: Well, then, you’d live like a queen.
LaRonda: Right, exactly.
Ryan: I joke all the time. I say I lived in LA, and I felt like a perfectly lovely, middle-class guy cruising through life. I moved to Atlanta, and I felt like I was living like a billionaire.
LaRonda: Exactly. And that's what's been happening on the film side of things, right? Because music people -- they get it. So you have artists and producers that live here quietly; like, you have no idea. But on the movie side? I think that's what happens. They come here to work, and then they realize, like, “Oh my goodness. I could do this for half the price?” And I'm not talking about above-the-line folks. I'm talking about below-the-line folks who then begin to live like they're above the line.
Ryan: Well, that’s really been the magic, right? That's been the magic of Atlanta from a crew base standpoint. And I've talked about this before -- but there's really only six cities of consequence in the English-speaking world when it comes to filmmaking and television. It’s really LA, New York, and Atlanta in the US -- you have London in the UK, and you have Toronto and Vancouver in Canada. And that's it. Everything else is kind of an afterthought; you know, like, there's something happening here, there, or whatever. But those aren't the major cities.
So, the major cities for manufacturing -- the six I listed -- of those six, there's only one place that if you are a crew member, your life is amazing. And that's Atlanta. Because you make the same money, right? You make the same money. It's all union wages. It's all set by the union pay scale. So you make the same money in LA. You make the same money in New York. You make the same money in London -- not because of the union pay scale, but because London basically adopted the union pay scale wages; it’s not unionized. And the same is true in Canada. And so, all these wages are international -- you bring that money to Atlanta, and suddenly it goes so much farther.
LaRonda: It goes so much farther. Right. And really, I am a part of a community here -- I know my mayor. I know my police chief. I have relationships with health people -- everything. And it's just feels like a real community. That was the thing I kind of missed in L.A. It's like you go to the to the person that everyone's going to. I really just didn't feel community when I lived in Los Angeles. I felt like I was there to do work, and that was it. I didn't have the total quality of life package. That’s what I have here. And that's why I love it in Atlanta, because I have a sense of community here.
Ryan: Well, let's talk about that community. You now have a company called Entertainment.gov, correct?
LaRonda: Yes, yes.
Ryan: Talk a little bit about what you do to help the government entities that know how to live with the entertainment community.
LaRonda: Okay. Well, I'm going to back up a little bit and tell you how I even ended up from music into this side of the world. In 2006, I did the music publishing thing. By 2006, I was working with Jamie Foxx. I worked across all of his different careers. So that was music, film, television, radio, concert, touring and promotion, stand-up; all of that.
That's where I began to really understand film and television. And I tried to sign Jamie as a writer back in the 90s -- so I kept a relationship with him and his team. After he won the Oscar, they wanted to launch a full-service management company. I eventually worked with Lalah Hathaway. It was really taking their brands across all the different mediums, right? Really just expanding who they were outside of just their talent.
I introduced Jamie to Kasim Reed, who was running for mayor at the time, and Jamie came down and did a fundraiser for Kasim -- and Kasim won. We did a whole drive on talk radio; the whole thing, and he ended up winning. So, Kasim -- I talked to him and I reached out to him and I said, “I want to do a little something different.” He said, “Are you ready to come back home?” Remember; we talked about that ‘welcome home.’ I was in L.A. He said, “Are you ready to come back home?” And I said, “Yes, but I want to learn something new.” So he gave me an opportunity, over a year-and-a-half time period, to learn how to become a film commissioner and become the first film commissioner for the city of Atlanta.
So I came in, and I worked with the industry stakeholders here: Lee Thomas, and Mike Smith, and Mike Riley, and Mike Aikens -- all those guys. I worked with them around crafting an ordinance for the film business, and how movies engaged with the city of Atlanta that was faciliatory and not regulatory. So, in order to do that, I had to do recon on what LA did around the movie business. New York, London and Chicago -- the best practices for these different cities. The ordinance was voted on in 2013. The office opened up, and the first goal was to streamline the permitting process -- because you have to realize that the Entertainment Investment Act passed in 2008. When Kasim took office, he was inundated with all these different requests, and he needed a solution quickly.
And so, when the office opened up, it became the one stop shop for all the requests -- for everything from filming at the airport to wanting to cut off leaves from a tree, or moving trees. For instance, ‘Ant-Man’ wanted to move trees. We processed all of those different requests; worked with all the different inter-agencies. In my research, I met a guy named Greg Swansell, who had an app that he worked with -- a gentleman in London, Andy Pavord, had created this online, cloud-based film permitting system that 98% of the provinces in the UK are on. It allowed you to move around, filming on the street, and to do it seamlessly -- and to work with their police and fire... and, well, here in the US, Homeland Security -- and all those different offices or agencies that need to be involved. Public Works, and closing streets, and things like that.
So, that app: we brought into the city of Atlanta. It was the first city in the US to launch it, and it revolutionized the permitting process. It made it so much easier. And it changed the size of movies that began to move around the city. The first big movie we did -- ‘Fast 7,’ Fast and Furious 7 -- on FilmApp -- it had the largest footprint. That crew and that production had the largest footprint over the city during that time.
Ryan: You must know Eric Hogue.
LaRonda: Absolutely. yeah. Yeah, I met with Eric before the office even opened -- because he was thinking about bringing the movie to Georgia. And Lee Thomas wanted Eric and I to me. So, Eric was like, “Well, I'm concerned to bring this here. Can you guys really get it done?” We’re like, “We’ve got you. We can get it done. We'll make it happen, because this is what we need -- this is what we want.” Eric and I worked really closely. He was one of the first big movie people that I really worked with, and cut my teeth on how to move productions around on the streets -- and deal with the community, and industry, and government, and how they all need to work together.
Ryan: Well, he loved it so much that he brought ‘Fast 8’ as well.
LaRonda: Yes, absolutely.
Ryan: And then, after that, Eric now is our head of production at Blackhall. He oversees everything -- dealing with all the production companies.
LaRonda: Eric and I; we always joke. In his mind, he's the king of logistics. He can move around so many things. Like, “Oh my gosh, you're working on this. We're doing this.” When you work in locations, you're working on so many different things and different deals, and you're dealing with different community members in different cities. You know, it's just a lot. And he's a master of it.
Ryan: Well, he’s got the mind for it.
LaRonda: Yes, he does.
Ryan: Yeah. A lot of people don't have the kind of minds that can juggle many ideas and things and processes at one time. Eric definitely has the kind of strong mind to be able to manage all of those disparate things and bring them together in a synergy that is beautiful. He does that all the time at Blackhall as well. And it's one of the ways, one of the important reasons, why we've had so much success.
LaRonda: And he knows everybody. Because he's great. He is great at his job. So, I totally get it. And so, at the Mayor's Office of Film and Entertainment, we launched it -- worked on over, probably, 150 movies -- streamlined the process, and put a new standard operating procedures for how movies move around the city, and transitioning out of that. And once I really learned it and mastered it, in 2016, I started Georgia’s first film permit facilitation company, called Film City. I did that for about two years, and it was great. I worked on great movies like ‘I, Tonya’ and ‘Uncle Drew’ and ‘Spider-Man.’ I worked with Marvel and Sony and Warner Brothers. Lots of big productions.
But I decided that I wanted to focus more on consulting, in terms of establishing an economic development policy for different cities, around film and entertainment. I sold Film City, and then I launched Entertainment.gov. And so that's what I do. I go into cities, and I show them how to not only attract movies to their municipality or county, but how to engage with the community. How to make sure that you have the right policy. Because, when you think about it, the state tax incentive gives the movie industry productions.
I'll just give you the example: money to buy water. And when they go into these cities, the cities have to be set up to sell them water, right? Because that's how they benefit. That's what I do. I help them put together an infrastructure so that they can sell them water when they come into their cities, because everything has to be done through a policy; through council; legislatively. They want to make sure that they have a policy in place, so that when they're impacted, their communities benefit -- from their parks to their public works to their police officers. All of that needs a structure.
Ryan: I love that. We're running out of time. Share with everybody who's listening how they can get in touch with you. Do you have a social media outlet?
LaRonda: Yeah.
Ryan: What are the best ways to reach out and follow what you're doing, or connect with you?
LaRonda: You can reach me on Instagram at @suddenlyithappened; on Twitter at @LaRondaSutton. And you can email me: laronda@entertainmentgov.com.
Ryan: I love it. Well, LaRonda, thank you for taking the time during the quarantine to jump on the phone and and do a virtual podcast with us. Let's do it again when we can have a get together in person. I'm loving this conversation.
LaRonda: Absolutely. Thank you, Ryan, so much.
Ryan: Have a great day. Enjoy yourself. Talk to you soon -- bye-bye.
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Ryan: I'll leave you guys with thoughts, which are reflections that I write on Instagram. “No, I will not do a video conference with you. I haven't showered in three days. Have a conference call like civilized adults. I'm social distancing in Social Circle, Georgia.” This has been the Blackhall Studios podcast, recording from quarantine in Atlanta, Georgia. I'm Ryan Millsap, chairman and CEO. Thanks for listening.
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Thanks for listening to the Blackhall Studios podcast with Ryan Millsap. We want to hear from you! Find us on SoundCloud, iTunes or Spotify, and follow us on Instagram at @Ryan.Millsap.
