Arshay Cooper Tells Ryan Millsap the Story of Chicago's First Black Rowing Team: "A Most Beautiful Thing"

Ryan Millsap, Chairman & CEO of Atlanta-based Blackhall Studios, is one of today’s top entertainment executives! With a vision for Blackhall that’s ambitious, energizing, and boundless, Millsap is blazing a trail through the heart of the South – and setting his sights on the future of entertainment. Listen and learn as Ryan Millsap journeys through the myriad industries, people, and landscapes that traverse the complex and dynamic world of film production.

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Ryan: Welcome to the Blackhall Studios Podcast. I'm Ryan Millsap. I got into the moviemaking business by being a real estate entrepreneur, but also because I'm a big movie fan. I get a huge kick out of watching blockbuster movies that I watch being made at Blackhall. COVID-19 has put a temporary crimp in production — hasn't it for everybody? But some amazing movies will be shooting at our studio soon, and I'll have some amazing folks on the podcast.

I'm also into ethics and philosophy, and I think you'll see those themes throughout the podcast. So, you're wondering: where exactly does the movie business and philosophy come together? That's the journey I want to take you on on the Blackhall Studios Podcast. I’ll bring you guests from both worlds, and I think you'll be surprised at how much philosophy goes into the world of making movies. Plus, you'll get an inside look at the new Hollywood of the South right here in Atlanta, Georgia. Give a listen. I think you'll enjoy what you hear. I'm happy to have you along for the ride on the Blackhall Studios Podcast.

Today on the podcast, I welcome former team captain and author Arshay Cooper. Arshay shares his experiences growing up on Chicago's West Side in the 1990s, and how the sport of crew changed his life and the lives of those around him. A Benjamin Franklin Award-winning author of A Most Beautiful Thing, Cooper has a new documentary out by the same title. You're going to want to watch it, especially after you hear this interview. I'm Ryan Millsap. Thanks for listening to the Blackhall Studios Podcast.

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Ryan: Hi, this is Ryan Millsap, and this is the Blackhall Studios Podcast. Today, we are really fortunate to have Mr. Arshay Cooper. Arshay, welcome to the program.

Arshay: Hey, Ryan. Thanks for having me. Excited to be here.

Ryan: Well, you have been an award-winning author, a motivational speaker, and activist. And you recently produced a movie about your experience with rowing. Pretty exciting.

Arshay: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's, a lot of buzz. No one expected it for the sport of rowing, but a lot of buzz.

Ryan: The name of the movie is A Most Beautiful Thing. What made you name this movie A Most Beautiful Thing?

Arshay: I think when you hear ‘Chicago’ and ‘black men’ in the media, it's not a beautiful thing. And I wanted to highlight the stories that are never told  — the black men who teach their sons how to row; black men who hire young black men in their neighborhoods; black men who overcame their fear of swimming and who contribute to their community  — but through the water, through the sport, and a million other things. I thought that story was important. And we thought that title was perfect.

Ryan: Tell me a little about, culturally, in the African-American community, the relationship with water. I watched the movie that you sent. I thought it was beautifully done. And one of the things I thought was so interesting is how everybody just assumed that nobody wanted to go in the water.

Arshay: Yeah. You know, it's one of those things. There's a history there with that  — I mean, the time of segregation, and Jim Crow laws. Not having access to a pool. When we finally did, especially in Chicago, it was only a four-foot pool, so people were just standing there. And once it expanded, we were told not to go into the deep. Right? So there was always this fear of water for most. But we also knew that it was life  — right? Growing up in black culture, water was related to baptism. So I kind of always knew in the back of my head that there's some kind of life behind it, but I wasn't sure.

But when rowing came to my school, and we were like, “No; we're not doing it. We're not being pushed out onto open water in a boat,” you know? So a lot of people turned away. There were a couple kids who could swim, but once we got out there, it was a downloading for us  — of serenity, and peace, and love, and all those great things.

Ryan: How does love and serenity fit into rowing?

Arshay: I think, when you’re in a sport like rowing, there's no cheerleaders. There's no million-dollar contracts after college. There's no pep rally; no busload of fans. What you do find is a group of guys that show up every day with no agenda for themselves and the person who sits behind them. They break their backs. They rip their hands. I mean, you get nothing out of it but pure brotherhood.

We found that that was the kind of people we wanted to be around. So, when you push out into that open water  — and we were all tough guys. You had to be tough in our neighborhood. When you push out into open water the first time, we saw fear in each other. Survival mode kind of kicked in. And they told us: “To get back to this dock safely, you have to pull together.” And when we started pulling together, we started listening. What the coach would tell you is to sit tall, breathe, relax  — and then it becomes meditative. And then that magical rhythm kicks in.

There's no police sirens, right? You don't hear the craziness that you usually hear in the neighborhood  — you're just following each other, right? The sound of the blade hitting the water in a constant motion for two hours becomes healing. That was a feeling that we wanted to experience every day. Some people meditate three hours a day  — I mean, 30 minutes a day  — and it changes their lives. But with us, two hours a day was special.

Ryan: I know you've referred to rowing as pure meditation, and it sounds like that explanation you're giving starts to put meat on that.

Arshay: Yes, absolutely. And it's a lot of suffering. It's hard work. It’s laboring. Right? But our coach’s goal first was for us to be good humans; to be contributors in our community  — and then, fast boat. So, he started off with this idea of it being meditative before we started competing.

Ryan: Do you think shared suffering is the foundation of true brotherhood?

Arshay: Could be. I think about the time where soldiers went to war many, many years ago. And even when there was a disconnect between those who were black and those who were white, they somehow fight together  — and suffer through all the things. They suffer loss, working as a team  — and all the hard work and labor they had to put in. They have this bond that kind of lasted a long time.

For us, it was the same way. We went to regattas. We were isolated. We were the only ones that looked like us. And we worked hard. We went through a lot of loss together, and wins together, in the same pain. When you share the same pain, you can understand each other on a different level that no one else understands.

Ryan: What are the virtues you think that you learned, and maybe the whole team learned, as a rowing team, that then carried you guys into life in a different way post-rowing?

Arshay: Yeah, I think  — a few lessons. Number one is, we understood that when there's eight people in a boat, you can't do the work of eight people. But you need eight people to do the work. And you get that much faster, right? You have to be there for each other; we have to show up. Even outside of the boat, in life, to get anywhere, we need to be doing it together. Right? When you see those guys  — a lot of the guys on the team are entrepreneurs. They understood how to build the team, how to get folks working together.

I think the second thing is learning. We all were leaders individually, right? But rowing took all of these leaders and made them into followers. We have to follow each other. So I think we learned how to also follow, although we are leaders  — to learn more, to get to the other, to get to where we want to go. And then, learn to trust. Even when it's hard  — right? We learned that.

I think the biggest lesson in a sport that you learn is, “Leave the boathouse better than you found it, and leave the stroke better than you found it.” Every day you show up, you want to leave your teammate  — with just what you say  — better than you found that person. Or the boathouse better than you found it. Or, you want to leave the world better than you found it. That’s the lessons that we try to use every day.

Ryan: Now, I know that in the movie, at the beginning, it's about when you guys were rowers in high school, and then by the end, it's looking at you guys doing some rowing as adults. Was there continuity there? Did you continue with rowing your entire adult life?

Arshay: The guys didn't. I did, in a sense of, I spent years trying to give opportunities of access to communities like I grew up in, all over the country. So, when I go visit a city, and I’m recruiting kids to row  — or I'm trying to get young kids recruited to college  — I go out and get on the water with them, and spend some time in the boat with friends I visit in different cities. But those guys haven't rowed in 20 years. So getting them back in a boat was mainly because they wanted to show their kids and their families what they did 20 years ago.

Ryan: One of the things, when I was watching this... really, I guess, documentary that you made, that struck me  — and that I've been reflecting on since I watched it  — is, how do you think the ‘white country club’ sports are somehow teaching different values than some of the more traditional team sports? Do you see a distinction there, or do you think that there's something to be said about these ‘white country club’ sports that needs to be integrated into all of society?

Arshay: Yeah. I think that the lessons of teamwork and brotherhood or sisterhood are the same. I think what the sports give is being able to have an opportunity to get out of the community for a while, right? When it comes to rock climbing, or water polo, or rugby, I think it gives you an opportunity just to step out of your community for a little bit and see what else is out there.

Remember; a lot of us had never even been downtown until the sport of rowing came. You’re in your class; you go to school, you're in your classroom all day, and then you have the traditional sports. You leave your classroom; you go straight to the gym room. You hang out in the neighborhood after practice, and then you go back home. These other sports kind of give you an opportunity to travel and interact. I didn’t think I could get along with people who didn’t look like me. But I began to interact with other folks once I tried the new sport. So I think it's the opportunity just to see different things that you normally don't see.

Ryan: Was that neighborhood so segregated that you didn't have white friends growing up?

Arshay: Oh, Chicago was super segregated. Not even white friends. Not even friends that were Latin. In Chicago, there was this fight-off that kind of separated different communities. You had the white neighborhood, the black neighborhood, the Hispanic neighborhood, the Asian neighborhood. And so you didn't have those friends. It wasn't until we went downtown, and we shared a boathouse with a few private schools. And again, it wasn't like that was friendship right away. But you had these stereotypes of other neighborhoods, because you really never interacted with them.

Ryan: So, in that process, did you make some white friends?

Arshay: Yeah. Later on. We were competitors at first, but we shared the same boathouse. And eventually, as we broke the ice and raced against each other, and started sharing the locker room, I started to interact with white friends, and also started noticing some things that that we don't have. Right? The ‘haves’ and ‘have-nots.’

Like, wow. We’ve got to catch two buses to practice. These guys show up in nice rides every day  — right to practice. And you start having conversations about certain things. You see their boats are better, or their coaches were Olympians. You start to notice a big difference when you interact. But they also learn a lot more about who we are, too.

Ryan: What are some of the things that, when you reflect on that experience of growing up without white friends, and then starting to make white friends  — what were some of the big realizations? Or, what were some of the interesting things about it? It’s basically like cross-cultural relationships; it’s no different than an American who grows up with all American friends and then goes and makes friends with a German.

Arshay: Yeah. You know, I think the guys have different questions for that. But for me, the biggest thing was... In our neighborhood, it was the disconnect between different gangs, or the disconnect also between the black community and the police department. I was that kid who'd never been suspended; never got in trouble, ever. I was just that kid. And I still had my face pressed on a police car numerous of times.

I thought to myself, “Well, maybe it's just because of the neighborhood I live in.” And then, when I started interacting with the other guys, I would go to a neighborhood in the West, or the suburbs, and play video games, leave their place  — and police pull over and check my backpack because they think I'm still in that neighborhood. And I'm like, “Wow. I'm not just getting pulled over in my neighborhood, but also in other places.” And I remember asking them, “Does this ever happen to you guys? When you guys go on your regattas; when you guys go on your race trips, and you go into a gas station, does the white cashier tell you guys to come in one at a time because they want to make sure that no one’s stealing? Or have you ever been on an elevator and a woman held her purse tight? Those kind of things?” And they’re like, “No.”

That's when I kind of realized... like, “Man. As a young person, I'm living in a different America than these guys.” And then they realize it. Right? Coaches understood that. And coaches weren’t the ones who broke the ice. We had to break that ice. We started learning, and talking about those things, at the boathouse.

Ryan: In the documentary, I noticed that you had a little bit of a kind of a pastoral spirit  — in the way that you would go to your friend's house every day and make sure that he was coming to the boathouse. Where did that come from? Do you know? Have you always been that way?

Arshay: I have not always been that way. I was an angry kid. Just because of my environment. I used to say to myself, “God is everywhere but the West Side of Chicago.” My mother was on drugs. She went into recovery when I was 14, and I remember visiting her after six months I didn't see her. She was singing at this church, and she just looked so well and so good. And for the first time, I believed. Like, there is hope.

She came home; she was amazing. We started watching these TV shows. And then she started forcing us to read  — and we didn't like reading. But we started watching these shows, like “A Different World,” and “Family Matters,” and “Fresh Prince.” I'm like, “Wow, these people look like me, and they’re living well.” So I started believing in hope. But the program she was in don't only work with the kids, but the whole family. So, when we were able to talk through some of those things, and have other families in the room, and young people who look like me tell their stories, I was like, “Wow, man. Like, my friends are living the way I used to live. And so I would love for them to also be in this room having the same conversations that everyone else is having.”

So, I see these young people angry  — the way I was at one point  — and how that anger went away. I just wanted them to experience the same thing. That's how that happened.

Ryan: You know, I'm just finishing up a book called Hillbilly Elegy. Have you heard of this book?

Arshay: No, I have not heard of it.

Ryan: You might enjoy it. It's written by a guy, a white guy, who grew up in Kentucky  — but he grew up in very poor Kentucky, really, as what he would consider to be a hillbilly. And his family moves to Ohio, and they become a little more middle class. But they would go back to Kentucky a lot. And they lived among, basically, the working poor.

And it's his whole... when I'm listening to you talk about the West Side of Chicago, it's making me think of this book, and his experiences as a poor white Kentucky child trying to make his way in the world. He went on to Yale Law School, and has had a really fascinating journey post-childhood. But one of the things that struck me  — and it strikes me as you're talking  — is this whole notion of awareness. Like, how rowing grew your awareness of the greater world, and the greater opportunities that might exist out in the world, and different ways of living that might exist in the world. Would you relate to that?

Arshay: Yeah, absolutely. People will say, “If it wasn't for rowing, where would you be?” I was like, “Oh, I’d be fine.” But rowing just made me aware of things, and I saw the world a little differently. It kind of changed the way I thought. So I absolutely agree with that.

Ryan: How many places have you put rowing programs in at high schools?

Arshay: Numerous places. I mean, places like Stockton, California; Rochester. Of course, Chicago; I’ve been to Oakland, working with Terre Haute, Indiana. What else... a few other places. I go there. We fundraise... Also New York, of course. We fundraise. We build partnerships with the public schools. We reach out. We have a community event.

We hire the coaches. I talk to college coaches and build that partnership. And then I work with the coaches throughout the year. Some of these coaches  — they know rowing, but they're not from this community. So, working with them on the youth development aspect of things, and understanding young people, and hiring people also for the community. Making sure that these young people are not only rowing but have academic support and social emotional learning, and everything else they need to be a successful rower.

Ryan: How much does it cost to start a rowing program?

Arshay: Whoo hoo hoo! You know, it depends on the city. But I will say you have to have at least, starting off, a $200,000 budget a year. I mean, now, in certain communities, it's expensive to play soccer, right? To join a soccer team or soccer club is expensive  — and all you need is a ball. But imagine the sport of rowing, where a boat is the same price as a car. Just one boat. Not even the oars. Not even the insurance to be on the water, and not even the rent for the bus; the transportation. And then you have to travel. You race one time in your city, and every other race is outside of your city. So it's really expensive.

Ryan: How difficult is to find coaching in this area? How difficult is it to go find good quality rowing coaches?

Arshay: It is hard. And people will say, “Oh, there's a lot of programs with kids of color, but they’re just not that fast  — you know? So it's hard to recruit kids that aren’t so fast.” And you're like, “Well, you can't afford an Olympic coach. So you have a coach who loves rowing because their son rowed in college, and they learn it, and they have a passion to work with kids in the community. And so you don't get the best coach. And then equipment is a hand-me-down from a college that's, like, 20 years old.”

It's hard to find good coaches that not only can teach rowing, but also really understand youth development, and understand the community  — understand how to work with young kids that they don’t normally interact with, because most of the coaches are white in this sport. So it's also training them  — not only to get kids fast, but to also how to work with them outside of the boat.

Ryan: How has COVID affected the rollout of your movie?

Arshay: You know what? Only because we were supposed to be in theaters. We were supposed to be in theaters in March, and we didn't make it to theaters. Of course, I would love it to be on the big screen. But we didn't get all the press that we wanted  — because they said it was rowing, and all the sports were happening. People wanted to cover other sports.

But when COVID hit, and there were no sports, all the sports journalists came. Like, “Hey, what about this rowing story?” So it helped out when it came to press and media attention. But COVID really affected the release of the film, and being able to go travel, and recruit kids to watch the film and then go over to rowing. So that hurt it in that way.

Ryan: What's your biggest hope around this film?

Arshay: My biggest hope is... number one, to give kids the roadmap, our roadmap, on how we became successful, and how we navigated through our hardship and adversity. And I think number two is, when you watch the film, one guy said at the barbershop, “When they tore down the YMCA, I ran into the street.” And he was hanging in the street. But when rowing came, he went to the team.

So, I think, talent is equally distributed  — but it’s access and opportunity that is not. So, if we can show that if people from these cities put their resources together and give access to young people that are talented, and then need an opportunity, it brings more change to the world.

Ryan: When will you know that all of these efforts  — not just you, but I guess, communally you. When will you know that all of the work has been successful, relative to trying to help children who are growing up in poverty?

Arshay: For me personally, I visit like at least 60 schools a year. When I can go to these places, and when I hear from these teachers, and hear from these students, more and more that they didn't grow up the way I did. I will start to see success when I can hear more and more stories of communities not being neglected or mistreated. There's more parks, and there's better education. More and more kids are going into college. And not only that  — the retention is great of kids who look like me, and they’re going into the workforce, and they're being accepted and treated equally. I think that's when I was starting to see a little bit more success for those who grew up like I did.

Ryan: Do you know of anybody who's tracking these things  — that they'd say, like, “All right. We started tracking this in 1950, and today we've noticed these changes to parks across America.” I mean, is anybody tracking these things to try to have some transformation that can be measured?

Arshay: Yes. For example, in New York, every individual boathouse tracks their numbers in general, and then US Rowing tracks their memberships. So, the way it works is: in order to row, you have to be a part of a boathouse. And that boathouse has to be accountable to US Rowing.

So, for example, in New York  — in the organization I work closely with  — we have 230 kids here, and 90% of them are of color, and 100% of them, every year, graduate high school. 96 every year go into college. We send those numbers of how many of those kids are rowing in college to US Rowing, and US Rowing, every year, will say, “Hey. These are the numbers that are growing of people of color in the sport.” It's very slow. I believe it’s getting a little bit better. But US Rowing actually tracks these numbers.

Ryan: Well, this documentary is very timely, obviously, with all of the Black Lives Matter protests and all of that push that's going on in the US right now. How are these things fitting together in your world?

Arshay: Yeah. I think it's fitting together  — meaning that, especially after the killing of George Floyd  — which was hurtful, and really just put an extra dent in our country. I think people are no longer in denial about what's happening in these communities. And right now, people are pushing to amplify Black voices and Black stories. That has been helpful to me and my team, and our film  — and not only in our film, but to some of the young kids who are rowing now. There's college coaches, and universities like Princeton, the University of Alabama, and U-Dub, that are all reaching out to me and saying, “I need to do this. I need to diversify my team. I need to give opportunities. What do I do?” So my world is busy, but I see a lot of opportunities, and so I'm working towards that.

Ryan: So, you grew up on the west side of Chicago. You start interacting with white kids in high school for the first time. You've obviously now been all over the country  — and I don't know; probably all over the world. You've seen a lot more culture than you did when you were growing up. What are some of the virtues that you observe inside of the Black community that the white community is missing out on by not knowing about these virtues in the Black community?

Arshay: Yeah. It’s a great question. I think it’s what we bring. The media don’t highlight this, but the positivity that we bring  — the magic, the brotherhood and sisterhood, the entrepreneurial spirit, the hustle. Right? I always talk about highlighting the young people who are young entrepreneurs out there, that are really making it happen in their communities, that no one is talking about  — that I think they're missing. That can be taught; you know?

There's a lot of young people in our culture I talked about in the film  — Ken, who saw what was missing in our community. He saw all these young people who were drug dealers, but had a large leadership, who took risk, and made a lot of money. He said, “How can I make them into traders? I'm a trader. They understand risk. They understand how to make money. They know how to build a team. They learn management. They like video games. They know math.” Recognizing that talent, and bringing them over to a world that's so different.

So, I think that a lot of folks don't see that kind of magic that is happening. I choose to call it magic. And I think that's a big thing that, sometimes, they don't see culturally.

Ryan: Do you know any stories like that? Guys who grew up on the street, became drug dealers, and then made some transition to Wall Street?

Arshay: I know. Actually, Ken hired a couple of those guys. And this was back in the late 90s, early 2000s. I think one guy’s name was John. I remember these stories from when I was young, and I could get to him; talk to Ken about it. I don't know where they’re at now. But I do know there's more stories of young people who were drug dealers, who moved over to other jobs of management because that talent was spotted at an early age.

Ryan: Are you only doing documentary work, or are you also doing fiction?

Arshay: No; I think this is the first documentary. And I'm trying to figure out what to work on next. But I’ll tell you what  — I want to do another documentary. I never talk much about this, but in 2028, the Olympics will be in LA. I have a passion for young black men. And there's never been an African-American male who rowed on American soil in the Olympics. There's only been one woman, and that was, like, ‘84. Now, I want to identify that talent and have them represent our country in that boat. So, that's something. I see it; I'm working on it. And I'll say, “Maybe this can be a doc.” But I've learned a lot by being a part of this doc, so I'm trying to see what's next with me.

Ryan: Well, I'll tell you where you should go recruit from: guys who are washing out of the NBA.

Arshay: Oh. Oh, wow.

Ryan: Young guys. Like, 20-year-old ex basketball players; 22 year old ex basketball players; and put together a boat of six-foot-six to six-foot-ten guys.

Arshay: That would be awesome.

Ryan: That's how you go win.

Arshay: That's a great idea.

Ryan: So, one of the things I was thinking about when you were talking: I think that there's actually a screenplay that we should develop around this notion of drug dealers becoming Wall Street traders. I think there's a story there.

Arshay: I think there's a story there. I think there's a story there. Ryan. All right, man. It looks like we’re putting something together.

Ryan: I agree. I think there's a story based on your actual, real-life experience. Now, we're going to make it a little more Hollywood.

Arshay: Yeah.

Ryan: Right. But this notion that you've got these kids growing up on the West Side of Chicago, and this guy who's a trader comes and starts a rowing team at the high school. But while he's starting this team and coaching you guys up, he starts meeting these local drug dealers. And he then recruits them in and trains them up to be, like, hedge fund managers.

Arshay: That would be awesome. And I’ll tell you, too: there was this guy in my neighborhood, growing up. He would see young people  — not just because they had holes in their shoes, or no food, and he was like, “Hey, here's some food. There's more where that comes from. Talk to me later.” He's like, “Hey, here's your first pair of Jordans, right? If there are any more of your friends who need them, tell them to come see me.” And eventually, they start selling drugs, which is sad, but they're surviving. And if they get locked up, he would sent money; put money in their books. And he would say, “If there’s anyone else that needs money in their books in prison, tell them to come see me.” And when they get out, if they can't find a job, they would come see him.

He would have this large territory and force and the city of Chicago  — you know what I mean? But if that guy met a coach like I had  — had an opportunity like I had  — imagine what he would do in a city like Chicago.

Ryan: Well, that's what this story is going to be about. Exactly what they go do.

Arshay: Yeah, exactly.

Ryan: Now we're going to have to decide how good or bad they end up. Right? Because money is obviously an exponent on people's character.

Arshay: Yeah. And I think some of these things are not bad choices, right? They're hard choices. And when you look at the film, people don’t join gangs because it's like, “Hey, I want to join a gang.” It's like, “Man, if I don't have the help, as a loner, I'm screwed. If I can't feed the kids, I'm screwed.” And so I think we can touch a little bit on the start of that in the 80s in Chicago.

Ryan: Well, and that may be part of this story that we explore  — which is: you have a couple of drug dealers. Let's say they were very successful drug dealers. They get trained up as hedge fund financier investors. And one of them  — they both become very rich  — but one of them may become very rich and very evil, and one of them may become very rich and very good.

Arshay: Oh.

Ryan: Right. So maybe it's an entire television series.

Arshay: That sounds like a television series. I like that, man. I really love that idea.

Ryan: Well, I think we should try to work on it and develop it. I think there's legs there. It's an interesting, fascinating kind of “Billions” meets “New Jack City.”

Arshay: Yeah. Let's do it.

Ryan: Well, offline, we'll start exploring that and see if we can bring some of those worlds together a little bit.

Arshay: Okay.

Ryan: Share with me some of the other things  — some of the other lessons  — you've learned from sports. I mean, obviously you learned a lot in rowing. Did you play other sports?

Arshay: To be honest, there was a lot of violence in the community. So I've been chased, right? I've had fights. And because of that, you get angry, and you become protective. And this is from my experience. I tried out for basketball. I was athletic. I don't know how great of a basketball or football player I was, but I tried out for basketball. And it’s a trash-talking sport. I would get angry, because people would say things that I heard growing up from a teacher, or someone at a home. Like, “You’re garbage. You suck. You're not going to be good at it.” It didn't make me feel good, and I always found myself in trouble playing ball.

Then, when I tried out for the football team... you have a coach who’s like, “Knock ‘em dead!” And I'm like, “I don’t want to hurt somebody, or for somebody to hit me.” And I can't get over trying to hurt them back. It just wasn't a good dynamic for me. And that's why I fell in love with rowing  — because it was non-combative, or no-conflict. It didn't trigger the trauma. Rowing actually reduced the trauma. And so, that's kind of why I stuck with that sport.

Ryan: Are you guys taking this to any of the film festivals? Are there any film festivals left right now?

Arshay: I don't know. You know, we had South by Southwest. We had Ebertfest. We had so many film festivals lined up, and they started being canceled one by one. I think we did some virtual film festivals, like NAACP, and we did do virtual Ebertfest. And I think our film director, our producer, is trying to figure out what else they can get us to do, and what's coming up next. They're trying to navigate through that. But I'm just kind of sitting and waiting and figuring out what's next.

Ryan: What was your budget for this documentary?

Arshay: Honestly, I have no idea what the full budget was. To be honest, I think the directors and producers have that number.

Ryan: Got it. So, you didn't produce this.

Arshay: I didn't produce it. I kind of helped with the writing, right? Like, “Hey, I think we have a race. I think we can reach out to an Olympic coach. I think we do this. I think we invite this person. I think this person should speak.” So, I was just kind of the ideas. But behind the scenes, the budget  — that was the directors and the producers.

Ryan: So, where do you go from here? What's next for you?

Arshay: For me, what's next is to hopefully write another book. Writing is just so therapeutic and awesome, and full of great joy for me. And not only that  — but to continue speaking; continue to diversify the sport of rowing. Right now, we are talking with members of Congress around the issue of trauma and mental health for communities like the West Side.

So, those are the things I'm working on now, and in the very near future. The far future, again, is just the 2028 goal  — and hopefully, maybe, to do some do some more docs or something.

Ryan: Well, I thought it was very fascinating  — the section of the documentary that talked about mental health, and the difficulty of living in that kind of uncertain environment of West Chicago.

Arshay: Yeah. Whenever there's a mass shooting in a suburban school, those kind of schools, right away, they send all these trauma counselors in  — which they should, right? And I said to myself, “Wow; I’ve seen this stuff almost every day. And there was no trauma counselor. There were no social workers.” Right? It's one social work in a school of 1000.

We were young, and we skipped over pools of blood, and ran for our lives, and lost people before we were 14. You experienced what a lot of soldiers have experienced in war  — but while you're young, and the brain is still developing. So I think it's very important to be able to talk through those things and try to see some of the things that we've seen. It’s hard to think into the future when your brain is on that constant survival mode. So I think that is a very important thing to tackle.

Ryan: Yeah. The PTSD of growing up in that environment and then trying to move beyond.

Arshay: Yeah. And if you don't deal with that  — I think Charlamagne the God said, “If you don't deal with that pain and trauma as a kid, you grow up redistributing that pain and trauma to the people that are close to you.” And it's a real thing.

Ryan: What do you think the important things are going to be in the coming years to try to bring healing to America in these areas of race relations?

Arshay: I think number one is really understanding that, because of the 400 years of slavery and segregation and Jim Crow laws  — that's the reason why we are where we are, right? Trying to get folks to not be in denial about that, and not only have folks that are not racist, but anti-racist. Meaning, like, “This needs to stop.” And the ones who have benefited from this horrible situation  — how do we invest, or reinvest, in these communities? I think when you have an advocate or ally, trust starts. With that trust comes healing.

Everyone just wants equal opportunity, right? They want to have equal access. Before Ken came to our school, we couldn't just walk into a boathouse and say, “Hey, we want to learn how to row; me and my boys.” They were like, “No. It’s $300 a season.” And that still happens today. So, knowing that we can just be a part in everything that's happening, and what's offered in this country.

Ryan: One of the things I've been trying to figure out is that America is this incredible experiment in freedom. We have cultures from all over the world who come to America and set up their own little worlds inside of this place called America. So there's not a pure ‘American-ness’ apart from an overarching freedom to be whatever it is you want to be. How much, culturally, do you want to preserve a Black separateness? And how much do you want to see a melded America that somehow is not necessarily colorblind, but maybe beyond ethnicity or culture  — some sort of blended American culture?

Arshay: That’s a good question. I think, for now  — I'm thinking of the now, where people live, where they are. These communities, especially black communities  — you have to build with what you have, right? You have to find those resources in your communities. You have to heal as a community, and find yourself and your confidence back in your community  — and get to understand each other, and each other's talents.

I think there’s a lot of power in that. And remember: these communities  — or, think about a Black historic college  — they all were there because they weren’t allowed to go to the other colleges. So, I think, where were we’re at now? We continue to build out what we have, and try to bring more resources there. And I really believe in that. Power in each other. I think, eventually, when we have those resources, we have those things  — that openness  — and build that trust, then we’ll have the same that others have. When there's equality, you begin to reach out beyond your community and interact with folks that are not like you.

And, I mean, that's such a good question  — and a hard question to tackle. But I think, when I say I want the sport of rowing, or the Olympic team, to reflect the diversity in this country, I have to understand that there's things that we have to do within each rowing program, at each school of those who look like each other  — to understand, and get used to the sport, and learn the lessons of the sport, and figure out how they fit into the sport, and then we can figure out how to interact with other folks.

But the ultimate goal, honestly, is that we have Dr. King's vision of a beloved community  — that we can empower each other. We have rights. And then, together, we have this perfect blend, hopefully. But it's going to take a while, and it's going to start with self-empowerment, and community empowerment with each other, and family empowerment. And then, when we have that justice and inequality, I think things get a little better, and people are a little bit more open, and we can move forward.

Ryan: Such a beautiful vision. I think gaining clarity to that is part of this process, and coming to terms with the fact that there isn't a ‘perfect.’ America is not a land of the perfect. In fact, America is one of the few places where not having a safety net is actually a virtue, because it also means that there's no glass ceiling. It's a very open and incredibly opportunistic land that allows for failure and success, and allows you to overcome both of those things. Right? I mean, overcoming success is a question of human virtue, oftentimes. And overcoming failure is a question of human perseverance.

Arshay: Yeah.

Ryan: And all of these things are possible in an America that provides for so much freedom. So I just find myself reflecting and trying to put all these pieces together and imagine what it is that this world would look like as we continue to wake up to all of these different elements, and competing notions of what the good life is.

Arshay: Absolutely.

Ryan: Well, we are out of time. I really appreciate you being on the program today, Arshay.

Arshay: Thank you.

Ryan: I'm proud of what you have created with this documentary. And the story is a story I think a lot of people will enjoy hearing, and learn a lot from. So, thank you for taking the time to not only make this movie, but to come on and share with us some of your insight.

Arshay: Thank you so much, Ryan. I'm so glad you guys invited me. I know you heard the story on NPR and was like, “Let's talk to this guy.” So I appreciate it. And hopefully we can talk together about writing that screenplay in the future.

Ryan: I love that. I mean, we should really start developing a story out of this  — what is truly a fundamentally excellent narrative, that we can then kind of ‘Disney-fy’ a little bit.

Arshay: Yeah. Okay. Awesome.

Ryan: Well, that's cool. I love all these stories, and I love these conversations. And I think there's nothing but good that's going to come out of analyzing everybody's different growing-up experience and different experience in America. Arshay, amazing. Thank you for the time.

Arshay: All right. Thank you.

Ryan: I'm Ryan Millsap. Thanks for listening to the Blackhall Studios Podcast.

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Ryan: Putting an exclamation point on the end of each podcast, I share inspirational sayings that I write and share on Instagram. “In the most twisted way, the things that, on this side of true soul fulfillment, feel like what would constitute a dismantling of one's life, turn out on the other side of awakening to be the very things that were standing in the way of our experiencing the love and joy from the universe that we all have been longing for our entire lives to find.”

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Thanks for listening to the Blackhall Studios Podcast with Ryan Millsap. We want to hear from you! Find us on SoundCloud, iTunes or Spotify, and follow us on Instagram at @Ryan.Millsap.