This is the Blackhall Podcast, with host Ryan Millsap. With a vision of how real estate could turn into movies, and how movies could turn into money, Millsap set out to build the state's largest film complex. After checking that box, Millsap returned to his entrepreneurial roots —where real estate ventures, entertainment opportunities, nonprofit support, and golf course business deals rule the day. What's next for Ryan Millsap? Listen up — and you'll find out.
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Ryan: Hi, this is Ryan Millsap, and this is the Blackhall Podcast. Today on the podcast, we're going to have Micaiah Bell, who is a Harvard graduate from Atlanta, Georgia — a recent recipient of a scholarship that I created a few years ago, called the Millsap Scholars, where I offer to young men who play American football at the Division One level that, if they can get into Oxford, they can apply for the scholarship. I then pay for their graduate school. But while they're there, they have to play American football for Oxford University.
Micaiah is doing that right now. He's getting ready to leave for this scholarship. This podcast is about his time at Harvard, what he's anticipating Oxford might be like, some culture shock that he might anticipate — what it's going to be like for a young man who grew up with two pastors as his parents — and how faith has shaped his life. I hope you'll enjoy this podcast with Micaiah.
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Ryan: Welcome to the Blackhall Podcast. Today on the podcast we have Micaiah Bell, who is a Harvard graduate and a soon-to-be new student at Oxford University. Micaiah, welcome to the program.
Micaiah: It is great to be here. Thank you.
Ryan: So, Micaiah is the recipient of a scholarship that I created with Oxford University a few years ago. He is a Division One football player at Harvard; graduated from Harvard; and is now going to continue graduate studies at Oxford University, which we're really excited about. He's the second recipient of the scholarship — and the football team is going to be really excited when they get to meet him. He's 230 pounds of lean, mean football machine.
But Micaiah, tell me: What are some of your thoughts about Oxford, pre ever seeing Oxford, and what's your imagination around what your time there might be like.
Micaiah: Well, I've done no research into what the school actually looks like. I'm saving it all for when I get there. But I can imagine old buildings; kind of like Harvard. Coming from Harvard — they have a lot of old buildings there. And I think Harvard kind of borrowed the model from Oxford. So, I think it's been preparing me for going over there.
I’m super excited. I think it's gonna be a lot of hard work, which I'm excited for; a lot of studying, a lot of reading, and a lot of good football. I'm excited. There are some good guys on the team. There’s a guy from Princeton — I played against him for a couple of years when I was at Harvard, and that's exciting. But ultimately, I'm just excited to get to a new country and study — learn more, hone my skills, and develop.
Ryan: What did you study as an undergrad?
Micaiah: Psychology, with a secondary in sociology.
Ryan: And what were some of your favorite things about studying psychology at Harvard?
Micaiah: That is a great question. I think studying psych at Harvard is different from studying something like physics, or something that's more STEM — in that, in psych (and sociology also; in any of the humanities), you really can go as far as you want to go. So, if you choose to do the extra readings, or if you choose to meet with the professors or go and speak in section and actually have the debates, you're going to receive a lot more.
That was my favorite part of it. The professors — you can email them, and they're like, “Yeah, let's get lunch.” I would never have done that with my high school teachers. I would never have thought that professors were doing that. Eventually, I ended up starting my podcast, and I was interviewing professors. That's a whole thing we'll get into later.
But the biggest thing that I enjoyed the most was being able to talk to people, and really express ideas. I think that's what ultimately made me smarter — as opposed to the schoolwork, of course, and doing the readings. But debating and talking with people who were just worlds ahead of me — especially those professors — and being able to pick their brains for knowledge and information ultimately advanced me in so many different ways.
Ryan: You grew up here in Georgia, correct?
Micaiah: Yeah. North Georgia. I went to Harrison High School.
Ryan: And how much traveling did you do when you were growing up?
Micaiah: I never left the country. Most of my traveling was going down to Florida for vacation. I went to Michigan to visit some family; also some family in Mississippi. But that's about it.
Ryan: So, Harvard: did you go in cold to Harvard?
Micaiah: I did.
Ryan: What was that experience like? You just showed up on a fall day in Massachusetts?
Micaiah: Well, I should say I didn't fully go in cold. I took one visit.
Ryan: Oh, you did; okay.
Micaiah: Actually, two, technically. I took an official visit, and my parents and I did a Northeastern school tour. So, like, a lot of the Ivy Leagues, and some other great schools that had offered me. During my junior year, we went up there.
But for the most part, I went in cold. It's not like I was really staying in Cambridge and really getting the full feel of it those two times that I went. But when I got there, I was expecting more of a culture shock. My parents are from Michigan, so they were telling me, “Oh, well, the North is going to be so much different when you get there.” And honestly, yeah — it was different in some ways. Maybe they were trying to scare me or something. But it wasn't anything crazy. It was really cool. And I think when I compare it to going off to Oxford, it’s going to be a bit different, because obviously, I'm going to a different country. I was joking around with my friends, saying, “I don't even know where the nearest CVS is.” They don't even have CVS over there. I don't even know where to go to shop.
Ryan: I think it's called Boots.
Micaiah: Boots. Actually, I'll keep that in mind. Thank you. But my change from coming from the South all the way up to the Northeast wasn't it wasn't drastic. I actually found out that I love the cold as well. So, those 20-degree days — that's, like, warm for me. A good ten-degree day feels great. You can throw on a nice outfit.
Ryan: You loved it.
Micaiah: Loved it.
Ryan: That's interesting. I guess you grew up in the South, and there's some cold days here; occasionally you wear a jacket.
Micaiah: It can be. Yeah.
Ryan: Not the same, though.
Micaiah: No, no, no.
Ryan: So, you like that biting cold that happens in Boston.
Micaiah: I do, yeah. Actually, maybe I'm a little weird, because I'll sleep — it'll be the middle of the winter up in Boston; like, ten degrees at night — and I'm sleeping with my AC on full blast, blowing directly on me.
Ryan: But not window open. It's not like you're trying to sleep in 20 degrees.
Micaiah: No, no; I can't sleep with a window open. That's just crazy. I’d probably get sick from that.
Ryan: Okay. So then, how much time have you spent outside of the United States now?
Micaiah: Still none.
Ryan: Still none? So, you've never set foot in Europe? That's incredible. No Mexico? No Canada? You were born and raised; never left the United States.
Micaiah: Never left.
Ryan: And so, this flight that's coming up in a few weeks — how many weeks are we away from that?
Micaiah: About two and a half.
Ryan: Two and a half weeks from now, you're going to get on a plane to London, and you're going to step off that plane. That’ll be the first time you've ever stepped foot outside the United States.
Micaiah: Exactly.
Ryan: That's so exciting. I can't wait for you. I can't wait to hear all the experiences you come back with, all the stories that you have to tell.
Micaiah: I’m excited. You know, I seem to have met more British people just this past summer than I've ever met. I don't know if I'm just keeping an eye out for it now, but I'm getting a lot of banter from those people — they're telling me, “Oh, I'm just getting you warmed up for when you go there.” So, I'm expecting a lot of different things. I think that'll be the huge culture shock. But, you know — eight hour flight, straight across the ocean. That'll be the longest flight I've ever taken. I think the longest was to California; from Georgia to California, five hours or something. But that'll be exciting. I'm excited for all of it.
Ryan: Have you squared all your arrangements as to where you're going to live?
Micaiah: Yes. I'll be at Green Templeton College. Got my great... flat, I think they call it. I don't know what they fully call it. I think they're all different.
Ryan: Do you know what part of town that is in Oxford? Because I don't. When you said Green Templeton, that didn't jog my memory.
Micaiah: No. It's a mix of two colleges. It was Green College and Templeton College, and they merged together. I couldn't tell you where it is within Oxford, because I just don't know my directions like that. It seems to maybe be in the middle of it all. I'm not sure.
Ryan: And then, is Green Templeton your home college?
Micaiah: Yes.
Ryan: Oh, it is; okay. I was at Keble College. And I wonder — does Green Templeton have a rowing team?
Micaiah: I don't know.
Ryan: It'd be interesting to see all the different sports — because they play a lot of intramural sports, college by college.
Micaiah: Oh, okay. Yeah. We kind of did that at Harvard, actually.
Ryan: Right. So, you could play some rugby if you wanted to; or you could play some cricket if you wanted. I mean, all the colleges have different teams. Everything from soccer to field hockey. Alright — so, what's your degree going to be at Oxford?
Micaiah: I'm doing a master's in sociology. It's more of a taught course with a bit of research at the end. Dissertation at the end. I think it'll be exciting. I shifted away from psychology to sociology, more — because, like I said, that was my secondary at Harvard. It seems more expansive. There's more that you can research; more you can go into. You can also combine psychology and sociology. You can combine business. A lot of business schools will have organizational behavior as a PhD program, in which you combine certain things within society and business. It's just so much that you can research. You can research social media in society, and how it affects people from both a psychological standpoint and a large, society-scale standpoint.
So, in my opinion, it's a lot more that you can do that interests me personally. But I'm not really sure what I'll end up writing my dissertation on. I think they actually give you a prompt, so we'll see. But yeah — master's in sociology.
Ryan: So, you're going in a little bit cold into the program, without necessarily a specialty from day one.
Micaiah: Yeah, exactly.
Ryan: Well, that'll prove very interesting. So, have you always been academically inclined?
Micaiah: Yes; I've always been very good at school, and I've always kept my grades very high. My parents were kind of adamant about that. And I think that I just knew growing up that it was a good thing to do. I wasn't really sure. You know, when you're a kid, you don't really think “Oh, I want to go to college” — at least, I wasn't really thinking about that when I was in elementary and middle school. I didn't really think about colleges specifically in high school, until after I started playing football. But most of the time, I just knew: “Oh, it seems like a good thing to have good grades, so I should probably do it.” And it was easy for me. It came naturally.
Ryan: What kind of educations do your parents have?
Micaiah: My parents have ThDs: doctorates in theology. They're both pastors, so they gain their doctorate through the practice of being pastors. Aside from that, they went to a community college down in Mississippi. So, small colleges; and, yeah, just work jobs. My dad worked as a paralegal for some time. My mom picked up jobs here and there working in offices. They’re both doctors. It is recognized by the state.
Ryan: Did they do those studies together, or did they get those degrees at different times?
Micaiah: I think they got them together because they were both full-time pastors for the same amount of time. So, they did honor them at the same time.
Ryan: And are they still full-time pastors?
Micaiah: They are, yes.
Ryan: Amazing. And they pastor together. Tell me — have they been doing that your whole life? You grew up in a church where your parents were co-pastors?
Micaiah: I did. So, this is the 25th year anniversary. I'm 22 now, so it had been three years before.
Ryan: You were conceived in this church.
Micaiah: Literally. I was named from the pulpit. I don't know if I've told you the story.
Ryan: No, tell me the story.
Micaiah: My dad was preaching. There's a prophet named Micaiah in the Old Testament, and he was saying from the pulpit: “There was a prophet named Micaiah.” He says the Lord spoke to him and said, “That's the name of your son.” And my mom's pregnant at the time. So, that's how I got my name.
Ryan: While he was preaching, he just had this revelation. He said the word, and then he heard, like, kind of in his soul: “That's the name of your son.”
Micaiah: Yeah.
Ryan: That's incredible. Do they share preaching duties?
Micaiah: Yeah. My mom does a lot more of the women's ministry, which actually just started back up. It kind of shut down with Covid. And then a lot of things happened. We were gifted a new building, which was very nice — $3.5 million. There's a whole story behind that, which was insane. But we moved into a new building — and, you know, just a lot of things to get adjusted to that. But the women's ministry just started back up this past Sunday, which has been phenomenal. My mom will teach every now and then. My dad does most of the teaching. And then, my brother has been teaching as well. And I've also been preaching a little bit here and there. So, it's kind of become a family run business, I guess you could say.
Ryan: I like that. So, what's the age gap between you and your brother?
Micaiah: Six years.
Ryan: And it's just the two of you?
Micaiah: No; I have a sister who's 12 years older than me.
Ryan: Oh, wow. These are big gaps. But all the same parents?
Micaiah: Yeah.
Ryan: So, your sister is 12 years older. She was 9 — does that sound right? — when they started the church, because she's 12 years older. You were born three years into the church. So, yeah, she would have been 9. So, she's seen it all, right? Does your family have tight relationships?
Micaiah: Yeah. We're all very tight. Very good.
Ryan: Where's your sister today? What’s she up to?
Micaiah: She's in Atlanta. She works as a reading specialist at an elementary school. And she just got her PhD this past year. We just went to her dissertation this past summer, but she still has one more course to take. They gave it to her early. She did that good. It's kind of crazy. She finished in three years while working full-time.
Ryan: That’s amazing.
Micaiah: I don’t even know how that's possible. But she did that.
Ryan: You’ve gotta be a special person. And then, your brother is six years older than you.
Micaiah: Yeah. That's correct.
Ryan: And what's he up to?
Micaiah: He owns a soap business. He also works in printing sales. And he's going to Bible college, coming up — or, he’s in Bible college right now online, and he's going in person next year.
Ryan: Where's the Bible college?
Micaiah: It's in Colorado. It's called Charis; Charis Bible College.
Ryan: All right. And then, was he an athlete?
Micaiah: Yeah. Actually, he's probably the best athlete in the family. He made it to the Patriots rookie minicamp; ultimately, it didn't work out. He had a knee injury. It was, like, a freak knee injury, while he was at the camp. It was, like, a bone swimming around in his knee. But he had a great camp. The coaches liked him. But you know, it’s the NFL, so it's pretty cutthroat. Things didn't work out. But he ran a 4-3 in his pro day. Crazy athlete.
Ryan: What position?
Micaiah: Corner.
Ryan: 4-3 corner. Where did he play in college?
Micaiah: University of Charleston, West Virginia. D2 school.
Ryan: Wow. And he's not 6’3” / 230?
Micaiah: No, no. He's 5’11” — six feet, with some shoes on maybe. Like, 190.
Ryan: But watch out for the quickness.
Micaiah: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ryan: And then, how about your sister? Is she an athlete?
Micaiah: Not that I know. But I don't really know. I was 6 when she went to college.
Ryan: 12 years is a big gap. I mean, that’s like separate lifetimes. When you were 12, she was 24. I mean, she left the house when you were...
Micaiah: When I was 6.
Ryan: Yeah. She's more like an aunt, sociologically.
Micaiah: Yeah. Basically.
Ryan: And, so, you said your brother's preaching at the church?
Micaiah: Yeah, he has been doing some preaching. It’s been great.
Ryan: And you said you've been preaching — but what kind of things have you been preaching on?
Micaiah: I like to preach about faith. I've had a very fortunate journey. I’ve believed in God for all the things I've gotten. High school was the first time I really started to truly stretch my faith for things; I believed in God for scholarship offers. And I ended up with 19 of them — off of half a season’s worth of film. A lot of people could say I didn't deserve to get the offers; cool. You can say I didn't, but God wanted me to have them. So they worked out. When I got to college, I believed in God for more opportunities to grad transfer. I ended up with those opportunities as well. I believed in God that he would just guide me to do the right things. And ultimately, I came across the scholarship and the opportunity to go to Oxford.
I felt that in my journey, there were certain things that I had done that I felt needed to be shared with people. The way that I applied the scriptures — the way that I believe God works in my life — has really helped out a lot. And I felt that I couldn't just sit on a goldmine of achieving so many things without giving the credit to God, and also telling people how I did it.
Ryan: What has been the era of your life where faith was the most difficult, do you think? Because it sounds like you grew up around faith. And it's not always easy to grow up as a pastor's kid — in this case, a double-pastors’ kid. When do you think — psychologically, spiritually — faith so far has been most difficult?
Micaiah: I would say, probably, my sophomore year of college, and maybe the first semester of my junior year. I think college has a way of challenging a lot of people. I was surrounded by a lot of people who were of various backgrounds — apostates; people who had just converted; people who didn't believe in God; people who had never given religion a thought.
One thing about me is that I love to talk about intellectual things. And if you get me in on an intellectual conversation, I'm like a fish with its mouth open; I'm a sucker. You’ve got me in there, and now I'm talking. I would always talk in these conversations about religion, and sometimes I didn't have the answers. And a lot of times, the people would challenge me so much that I'd be kind of shaken in my faith.
Also, on top of that, I was dealing with a lot of things that weren't going the way that I thought that they should go. I realized I had a narrow-minded outlook on God, and what he is, and what he's supposed to do. I was thinking, “I've achieved all these things, and now I'm starting to face these challenges, and I don't know how to deal with them — so maybe God's not real. Or maybe my faith is not working. Or maybe I should just live life how I want to, and forget the discipline, forget the asceticism, and all these things that I've been adhering to that's helped me in my faith walk, because ‘XYZ’ is not working out. So, screw it all.”
I went down that path, and it didn't end so well. Things just got worse for me, and I reached a pretty dark place in which I felt like I was so far from God that, “Do I even know who God is anymore?” And that was a really hard time for me. But one scripture that's always been in the back of my mind — and I'm fortunate to have been raised in a Christian household — is, “Train up a child in the way that he should go, and when he's old, he won't stray from it.”
So, it seemed like no matter how far away I got from God, I ended up turning back at some point. I ended up realizing, “Nah, I'm not on a good path. I need to be back on the path of God.” And it's like the prodigal son — every time I decided to turn back, God was there with open arms, and he was there to take me back. And he was willing to guide me more, and lead me, as long as I applied myself. Like the Scripture says, “Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you.” When I drew near, he was there, and he helped me. So, it was very difficult for... I’ll say, that year and a half. But ultimately, I made it through.
Ryan: How do you think people survive who don't have any faith?
Micaiah: I think they do just that: survive. I think that faith adds to your life, and that it can help you thrive; truly thrive. Like, did I need 19 scholarship offers? Probably not, but I got 19. So I was thriving. I just needed one to go to college. I can only take one, you know? But faith helped me thrive.
I also think that there's a lot of psychology behind faith. If you think about the idea of what faith is, it's basically believing in something that you can't actually see. But when you choose to believe in that, your mind is able to see things from a different perspective. It’s like we were talking about earlier: the ‘spiritual imagination’ that we were talking about before we got on this podcast. When I'm in faith, and in true faith, and I truly believe that everything is going to work out alright, there's a psychological phenomenon behind that in which things actually work out alright.
Why do they work out alright? Could you say it's the faith? You could also say it's the fact that I'm expecting things to work out okay, so I subconsciously end up putting myself in positions in which things are working out okay — in which I'm finding a way for things to work out. I'm expecting good things to happen in my senior year, because I'm in faith, and believing that God has the right thing for me to do. I put myself in a position for good things to happen. I applied for jobs, I applied for schools, I applied for all these different things — and the right door opened.
So, when I'm in faith, I'm not worried that something bad is going to happen, or that nothing's going to happen. Even when something doesn't go the way that I wanted it to, I'm in true faith, and I'm believing, “Okay, there must be a reason for this. It must be that something's better here for me.” For example, I'm a big fan of the SEC. I always wanted to play in the SEC. That was my goal. So, when I hopped in the transfer portal, those were the schools I wanted to go to. That didn't work out. I ended up getting some attention from SEC schools, but never got the full offer. They wanted to call, they wanted to chat, text — but never fully closed the deal.
So I was like, “Okay, well, you know what? This is my second go-around; it’s my final go-around.” It didn't happen and I was a little hurt. But at the same time, I was in faith. So I knew, “Oh, this must not be what God has for me.” God had something better. He had something completely different for me. Now I'm going to Oxford on a full scholarship. Whereas, if I didn't have faith, I would have thought, “I didn't get into the SEC. Now everything is over. I don't even know what to do.” And then you fall into a feeling of hopelessness. When you're in faith, you just end up putting yourself in good positions, I think.
Ryan: So, what's the difference, do you think, between faith and the power of positive thinking?
Micaiah: Funny you say that. I was just reading — I read a book called The Power of Positive Thinking, actually. By Norman Vincent Peale — I think that’s his name.
Ryan: Very famous old book.
Micaiah: Yeah. It’s pretty good. I think that they're pretty intertwined. I think that faith — and now we're going to dive into a bit of my theology, I’d say. I think faith is a is a real concept that exists outside of whether you believe in God or not — because you can look in the Bible where it talks about having faith. And a lot of times, it says, “Have faith in God.” It’s telling you to have faith in God — which, to me, can be interpreted as, you can have faith in other things as well. You can have faith about things as well. So I think the power of positive thinking is a universal rule. I think that that's something that just exists — like, you think positively, you end up putting yourself in more positive situations.
However, I think the difference in faith is that — at least in my experience — there's always been an internal feeling in which I knew something was correct. I knew something was better. So when I had 19 scholarships to choose from, and they were difficult situations — even back in high school, I had my opportunity with the SEC; I was being recruited by Auburn — but it happened so late. It was the summer going into my senior year where it was like, “Okay, I can wait to see if they're actually going to move forward, because they're showing interest — or I can just go ahead and commit to a school that I have right now. Harvard's on the table.”
But when you're choosing from six of the Ivy leagues, they're all pretty much the same. Harvard and Yale — which one am I going to go to? Flip a coin; they're both just as good, pretty much. So, the power of positive thinking: it's like, I can think positively about all those situations, but I'm going to choose one, and my faith is going to help me determine which one was the choice that God wanted me to take. Ultimately, it was the choice to go to Harvard. Ultimately, it was the choice to apply and go to Oxford.
So, I think that is the difference. It's a subtle difference, but I think what you're putting your faith in is able to help guide you to situations in which you feel more peace about them — because not every good situation means that it's good for you, if that makes sense.
Ryan: Makes sense. Let me ask a couple more questions. So, what do you think it means to put your faith in God?
Micaiah: So, when I was preaching about that, I actually pulled up that scripture:
“Have faith in God.” I said, “Okay, well, what is God? What are the closest things that we have to God?” The only things that we have are our Bible and prayer. So, to put your faith in God — I think the most concrete way of doing that is to put your faith in the Bible.
I think if you want to have faith in God, you then have to know the Bible first. Know some of the scriptures that are in it. And a lot of the scriptures — when you read the book ‘The Power of Positive Thinking,’ a lot of those are Bible scriptures. So, when you know those scriptures, you're able to apply them to life. That is having faith in God, in my opinion. So, when it talks about when Jesus says, “If you believe in your heart, and you don't doubt, whatever you ask God for, he'll give it to you,” I think that there are also caveats to that — because, later in the New Testament, Jesus says, “If you abide in me and my will abides in you, you'll ask God for what you want, and it will be granted.” So, it's like, “Okay, which one is it? Is it what I want? Or do I have to know what I want from abiding in God's will — or from abiding in the in the will of Jesus Christ, and not abiding in me?”
So, to go back, having faith in God, to me, is having faith in the Scripture. Having faith in what the Bible says. Having faith in the only concrete thing that we can say we know God is — which is his word, the Bible.
Ryan: Okay, so you think there's really good, solid wisdom in the Bible?
Micaiah: Yeah.
Ryan: And having faith in that wisdom is using it to help determine your steps.
Micaiah: Yes.
Ryan: So, we got that far. Is God still at work in the world today? In a willful way, apart from just holding us and existence? Clearly, the world has to be held in existence somehow. So, we're going to assume that that's God, right? The will of God; like, God saying, “Exist; keep existing. I'm going to keep you existing today.” But then, apart from that, how much activity do you think God is at work at in the world?
Micaiah: You know, actually, I want to say — because I haven't given this a ton of thought, so we're going to go through my thoughts on this.
Ryan: We’re making it up. But yeah, I'm asking you questions to make you think.
Micaiah: Yeah. I think, on first thought — I would say God plays probably more of a minimal role. I think when he left us the Bible, he left us so many tools to navigate this life — and a lot of tools in which we can't really fully understand and grasp the concepts of — that I don't think there's much of a role that he needs to play. I think that a lot of the scriptures in the Bible are able to help guide us. And then, he says he leaves us with the Holy Spirit. If you're someone who can attune your spirit to understand and hear from the Holy Spirit, you can be guided in life. And there are multiple scriptures on how to hear from the Holy Spirit, and how to do all these different things.
And it talks about what sin is. Paul talks about what sin is. Paul talks about faith in the New Testament. There are tons of rules here on how to live a faith-filled and God-led life, just from his Bible, that I don't think God is sitting up in heaven with a pen — or with whatever; with a board, just moving pieces around and making certain things happen. I think that he left us with a Bible filled with so much power that, when we use the scriptures and we actually apply them to our lives, things start to happen. Like, I think he sort of left certain rules in place within the Bible in which things start to happen.
Do I think that he can sit in heaven and move pieces around on the chessboard? Yes, of course; he's God. He could do anything. Do I think he's doing that frequently? Probably not as frequently as people think. So when people ask, “If God's real, why do bad things happen?” I'm like, “Well, because there's real evil in the world, and people are able to do evil things just as much as they're able to do good things.” If people could only do good things, there would be no need for... like, why would he leave us a Bible if we could only do good things? We choose to do the evil, and then we want to sit back and blame God for letting it happen. It's not. It’s like, if I'm a little kid, and I sneak in the cookie jar when my parents told me not to, and then I want to get mad at my parents for having diabetes. It doesn't really make sense that way. So, minimal role overall, with the ability to do anything.
Ryan: The ability to do anything; stays out of it, largely — apart from the wisdom of the Scripture, and the wisdom of the Holy Spirit, which in your conception is not necessarily miraculous power, but more still small-voice guidance. How would you describe the Holy Spirit's work today? I mean, clearly, I hear you saying the work is that of counselor; that of guide; that of, maybe, conscience enhancer. But what other ways is the Holy Spirit at work, do you believe?
Micaiah: Paul talks about the gifts of the spirit in the New Testament. I forget which book it's in, and I forget what all the gifts are. But there's discernment of spirits; gifts of healing; all these different gifts. I think it might be eight gifts that the Holy Spirit works through people. So I would include those on the list.
Ryan: Those gifts. If people display those gifts, you would want to attribute those gifts to the power of the Holy Spirit.
Micaiah: Yeah.
Ryan: Okay. So, then, God is at work. If God is at work, you believe that that work would be done through people; through the gifts of the Holy Spirit — but less work is being done by God in some sort of direct, willful way. Moving pieces on a chessboard without the will of humans.
Micaiah: Yeah, I agree; that's exactly what I'm saying.
Ryan: Okay. What do you think the ultimate — like, what is the meaning of life in your conception? What should we all be striving for? What's the end goal?
Micaiah: Well, we sort of talked about God in the spiritual family; the kingdom of heaven. I think that if we really had to choose a meaning of life, it would be to lead people to Christ, to be able to go to heaven. I think that's the only true meaning I could say that there is at this point.
Ryan: What does that mean — to lead people to Christ, in order that they might go to heaven? Because there's a lot of theological ways that those phrases could be taken.
Micaiah: I believe it's in Romans that it says — I might be forgetting the book.
Ryan: Doesn't matter.
Micaiah: “Whoever calls in the name of the Lord shall be saved.” That's one Scripture, but it says, “If you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus rose from the dead, you will be saved and inherit the kingdom of heaven.” Something like that. So, I think that's what it means to lead people to Christ. To get people to believe that Jesus died and was risen.
Ryan: Well, here's, I guess, maybe a more specific theological question. Is there a grand equation in the sky that God somehow has to honor relative to sin and the work of Christ? Or — because that's a very Protestant, Western notion of what it means to get to heaven by having faith in Christ. So, is there a grand equation that, if somehow I unlock the equation, I have a golden ticket? Or do I actually have to be transformed somehow into the kind of being that God actually likes in order to get to heaven?
Micaiah: I think I understand the two theological beliefs that can stem from. Because, on the one hand, you have the Scripture that says, “If you believe in —” well, what I just said — “you'll go to heaven.” On the other hand, there's a scripture that says, “All these people who commit these sins —" and it lists the sins — “will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.” So, it's like, do I have to be transformed and never commit those sins again?
The way I've always interpreted this is that God judges the heart. So I think he knows the difference between someone who chooses to believe in Christ and knows that sin is wrong. It's like what Paul talks about. He says, “I know what's right. I know what's wrong. I know what I want to do, yet I always do what I don't want to do. I always do what's wrong, as opposed to doing what's right, when I want to do right.” It’s so confusing, how he words this paragraph. It's so hard to parse. But I think that's the case. I think that there are people who commit sins — sins which would exclude them from the kingdom of heaven — but their heart is in the place that, “I know this is wrong, and I don't want to do this, yet I still end up doing it. I'm not trying to do this. But I still do it. I want to be forgiven.”
You ask God for forgiveness, but at the same time, there are people who commit these sins and they're like, “Yeah, I just do it; I don’t care. I don't think there's anything wrong with it.” I think those might be the people that Paul is saying won't inherit the kingdom of heaven. I don't think that there's such a thing as the ‘golden ticket,’ in which there can be nothing that you can do that can take this away. For one, the Bible says if you denounce the Holy Spirit — like, yeah. That's it. But I also think that it would just be counterintuitive that all I had to do was say a prayer; like, “I believe in Jesus Christ; now I'm going to heaven, so I'm free to do whatever I want for the rest of my life with no consequence.” That doesn't really seem biblical to me. So, I think it's more of a judgment of the heart, and the intent behind the actions of the person that can really make the final judgment.
Ryan: Fair. So, in that conception of what salvation might be, is there any way for someone to have certainty about their salvation before they're actually in the kingdom of God?
Micaiah: I feel that that's something you would know in your heart. I think that if you are living by the Scripture and abstaining from the sins that Scripture lists out — and, the ones that you fall into, you do ask for forgiveness, and you try to be better — I think you can be in a great place in which you know you'll inherit the kingdom of heaven. That would be my belief. At least, that's how I've always interpreted it.
Ryan: Do you think that level — like, the certainty of that? The reason I ask this is, Martin Luther was plagued by certainty and uncertainty. Really, he was plagued by uncertainty; the uncertainty of what it means to be saved, the uncertainty of the kingdom of heaven. And he developed a theology that then created a lot of certainty for himself and other people. How important do you think that level of certainty is? Versus, is the uncertainty somehow valuable in the journey?
I guess we're tying all these things to faith. It's important to have positive thinking. It's important to believe that God is for you, right? It's important to be able to have a spiritual imagination and conceptualize a world that might be the way God hoped it would be — and maybe even work to create that world. And yet, how much of that should translate into a certainty that God loves us, that God likes us, and that we might actually get to spend eternity in the kingdom of God?
Micaiah: I think it's a dangerous path to walk — the path of certainty. Because then it can very quickly turn to boastfulness. Paul talks about, “Don't boast,” because — I think he says, “You're the branch and God is the root. At any point, the branches can be cut off, but the root can't be uprooted.”
I think it's difficult for someone to say, “I'm 100% certain that I'm destined to go to heaven,” because then that also can lead to, “All right. Well, since I'm so certain there's nothing I can do that's wrong...” You can sort of psychologically trick yourself into thinking that. And then you end up falling into the path of sin. But, “Oh, it's fine, because I'm destined.” Things like that.
I think that a certain level of uncertainty is good because the Bible talks about the fear of God. And what fear would there be if I already know I'm going to heaven, and there's no way for me to screw it up? “God can't do anything, because I prayed the prayer — so he can't kick me out of heaven.” Like, that doesn't seem fair. There's a certain level of fear of God that I have. “Okay, let me try my best to not screw up — because this is God we're talking about, and I don't want to end up burning for the rest of eternity.” Maybe there's a certain level of uncertainty I should have. Maybe I should stay on my P's and Q's.
Ryan: So, when you're preaching, the call that you have to the people that are here listening to your proclamations is not necessarily to a gospel that is an equation — that says, “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. You need to pray this prayer of forgiveness and, if you do, then you're going to heaven.” For you, that would not be the way you would be preaching from a pulpit. You're preaching something more... I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I'm trying to get to what I'm hearing. I'm hearing you say something more like, “If you want fullness of life, God has it, and God is willing and able to meet you. And whatever place you are, there's nothing that is irredeemable. There is nothing that can't be healed now.”
You must be healed if you want to taste the kingdom of heaven; you can't avoid that. But, from the Bible and from the Holy Spirit, we have enough guidance. We have enough insight. We have enough wisdom that we can take a path of healing. Between the wisdom and the power of the Holy Spirit, we can become the kind of beings God actually likes, and might actually invite into the party that is the kingdom of heaven.
Did I come close? I mean, where do those fit together? Because I've studied a lot of theology and philosophy, and I've grappled with these things, and I can't imagine what I would actually preach if I was a preacher. I'm not a preacher, but if I was, I think I would really struggle with knowing how to explain the kingdom of God to people. So, do either of those resonate? Maybe help clarify for me what the gospel is that you believe that you're sharing with people.
Micaiah: Now, I do believe that if you pray the prayer, you’ll go to heaven. But do I believe that you're 100% exempt from anything? No; I don't believe that.
Ryan: What's the prayer do for me?
Micaiah: I think the prayer is the proclamation that you've accepted Jesus Christ.
Ryan: Accepted him for what?
Micaiah: As the Lord and Savior of your life. You believe that he died, and was risen from the dead. You believe that he came here to cleanse us of unrighteousness. You believe in the works that he did. You believe he was real. Like, all the gospel — where it talks about how he died, rose in three days, went to heaven.
Ryan: But what good does that do me if my life isn't transformed by it?
Micaiah: When you say life transformed...
Ryan: I mean my soul is transformed. Like, I can't be an evildoer. I can't be an evil being, and have access to the kingdom of heaven, because I'll probably screw up that society. So somehow, my soul has to be transformed, such that not only God might like me, but that the other people who are in the kingdom of heaven might like me.
And this is my conception. I'm trying to imagine the society of the Kingdom of God, and I can't just show up there like an idiot and expect to be part of that society — that’s what I'm imagining. So, what I'm asking is, how does the prayer — praying the prayer of asking Jesus for forgiveness — how does that play into actually making my way to the society that is the Kingdom of God? Because we've already established that you think you can pray the prayer but not end up in the Kingdom of God. So, what's that gap? What has to happen between the time that I pray that prayer and the time my soul is transformed, such that God might actually delight in my presence?
Micaiah: I think a few things. Before I go into what I think, I will say: Jesus says no one has seen the kingdom of heaven, so no one really knows what it actually is. So I try not to theorize on what my place would be in there, and how the ecosystem would work, because the only thing I can compare it to is what happens here on Earth. And it's probably not like that — because we live on a flawed earth, inherently.
That being said, I think, between the prayer and the entrance into heaven is the belief. I think I can find someone on the streets of Atlanta right now and say, “Hey, pray this prayer with me.” And they pray it, and they're like, “Okay, yeah.” They get home. Like, “I don't really believe that. I don't really care.” It didn’t work; there has to be belief, faith, behind it. And then, once you pray that prayer, then you have grace — God's grace. God's grace is enough to cover the sins of mankind. God offers his grace to those who confess their sins. I think that's 1st John 1-9. If you confess your sins and ask for forgiveness, he is willing and just to forgive us. I believe that’s how the Scripture goes. So, there's also that caveat: confess your sins and ask for forgiveness.
Ryan: So you have to know the difference between good and evil enough to confess the things that are evil.
Micaiah: Yes, because the Bible also talks about — I think, in Revelation, it says, “In the end times, people's minds will become reprobate; that they wouldn't know the difference between good and evil.” They would think that wrong is okay. So, you do have to know the difference between good and evil. I think you do yourself a disservice as a Christian if you pray the prayer, but never read the New Testament to actually know what is evil; what is sin; what are the things I should actually stay away from?
I think it's an added bonus to receive all the things like living by faith, and being able to receive what I would say are supernatural works in my life. That's an added bonus, but you definitely should know what's wrong and what you shouldn't be doing; that should be prerequisite.
It's like, when we had a conversation not too long ago, you were saying you studied up on so much religion that when you met someone who was Eastern Orthodox, you knew more about it than him. That made me think: “Well, do I really know the whole Testament? Maybe I should get in there and study more. Like, can I really say I'm a Christian if I don’t?” I could say I'm a psychologist, because I got a psychology degree, and I actually studied it. Can I say I'm a Christian if I didn't get the Christian degree by reading the New Testament and knowing what's right and wrong, and what's Christian? What's godly? So, I think that a lot of Christians do themselves a disservice in that aspect.
Ryan: Well, I obviously really struggle theologically with certainty. And I think it's very complicated to try to define even what it means to be a Christian. I know that I want to live the best life I can as a human. I know that I want to experience what it is God imagined for human beings when he created us. And when I say ‘he’ — it's like our conversation. I mean ‘they,’ because I believe in a Christian notion of the center of the universe being Trinitarian and familial; that the universe has never been alone. And I believe that everything in our life is so relational because everything in the universe emanates from a relationality that is God.
But I struggle, in every form of Christianity, in so much as every form seems to have some belief in the corner on the truth. Right? Like, “Here's how Christianity is, or is not.” Now in your conception — in your explanation — the motives of the heart, or the makeup of the heart, is critical in what God actually likes about human beings. Just like we look at the life of King David, which is massively chaotic — filled with all sorts of sins. And yet it seems, at least from the Bible, that this man is beloved by God.
Micaiah: Right. Yeah.
Ryan: Maybe even more than everybody else in the Bible — to a point where God even claims that David is a man after God's own heart. So, that's really complicated. When it comes to who is “saved,” or who is going to be invited into the kingdom of heaven, it seems like it does have a huge amount to do with, genuinely, whether or not God likes your heart.
Micaiah: Yes.
Ryan: So, that's difficult to preach on, right? Because you can't offer assurances to people. You certainly can offer paths — where you say, “Learn everything you can about the Bible; you'll learn more about God.” And maybe, in that process, your ugly heart might be transformed into the kind of heart that God loves. But then they'll say, “Well, David was a mess. So maybe God just loves me just the way I am.” And maybe that's true for that person, right? But it's hard to say it's true of all people because, certainly, I think — from what I've heard you say — there are certainly sins. And more important, maybe even, than the sins — there are certainly hearts; human hearts that God doesn't like. That God finds repulsive; that make God angry. And maybe the first step in spiritual life is just getting to a place where we say, “I don't want to be someone God hates. I don't want to be the kind of being that causes God grief, or causes God to wish he didn't create. I want to be the kind of being that makes God smile.”
And so, then, the spiritual journey may be, “How do I become that kind of being?” At least, that's what I'm asking. And certainly, my own Christian journey has centered around trying to figure out, “What does it actually mean to be the kind of being that God might like?” I only ask these questions because I don't know the answers, quite honestly.
But I do have lots of questions about the Western Protestant gospel, and the gospel that we hear in America, and what it means to then try to preach the gospel. Because clearly, God — at least, Jesus — wanted us to go preach the gospel, whatever the gospel is. And that level of humility makes it even more difficult to preach if you're not actually certain what the gospel is. I'm not even certain if God wants us to know with certainty what the gospel is. So, all this gets really complicated. But you know this because you've been on this journey, and so you keep trying to digest it. I'm fascinated. Have you had any interaction in your life with the Anglican Church?
Micaiah: I don't think so; no.
Ryan: So, Anglicanism is the official religion of England.
Micaiah: Okay.
Ryan: Started by Henry the Eighth, when he decided to cease to be a Catholic. Anglicanism has all its own intricacies and ebbs and flows that I think you're going to find very interesting when you're in England. And I hope that while you're there, you might even attend an Anglican church.
Micaiah: Yeah, I would go.
Ryan: There are some really good Anglican churches that are Bible-driven; very evangelical — in the best parts of that word; not the worst parts, but the best parts of that word, ‘evangelical.’ And they’re wrestling with all the same questions that we're talking about today. I think you'll find the Anglican Church to be a beautiful place to explore theological ideas. And I can tell you some of those churches in Oxford that are great.
Micaiah: Yeah, that'll be great.
Ryan: Alright. Listen, I could talk about theology for hours and hours. And I love this conversation. But let's transition a little bit to some of the practical things that you're going to encounter when you’re in Oxford. Have you started talking to anybody on the football team yet?
Micaiah: No, just Davis and Stewart.
Ryan: Alright. So, Davis Cline is the first scholar on this scholarship, called the Millsap Scholars. He came from Princeton, played running back at Princeton — and, last year at Oxford, he led the team to a great season. They went to the playoffs, he got injured, so he wasn't able to complete the playoffs. But he led the team to one of their best years ever, in one of their highest divisions ever. He mostly played quarterback. I think he's played some defense, too, but played quarterback and running back. But to pair you guys is going to be, I think, really exciting. Have you met Davis yet, live?
Micaiah: No I don't think so.
Ryan: So, just over text. And Stewart, of course — you've gotten to spend time with Stewart. Stewart Humble is the former president of the American Football Club at Oxford. He came out of LSU, did a PhD at Oxford — which he just finished — in neurogenetics. Crazy smart, fantastic human being. He played for the Oxford American football team, I believe, for five years.
Micaiah: Oh, I didn't know. That long?
Ryan: Yeah. I think five years, he played — and he really was the driving force in reorganizing the club; having big vision. You talk about spiritual imagination? He has a lot of spiritual imagination for the Oxford American Football Club. He helped get the field built, that he approached me about helping build. But it was his concept. He believed he could get an American football pitch built in the university parks. I thought it was pretty crazy, but he got it done. And, he's the one who, when I told him about the scholarship I wanted to create, helped conceptualize using a partnership with Vincent's Club as the means by which to accomplish that at the university level. Really smart to come up with that concept.
And then obviously, Vincent's Club has been irreplaceable in our partnership together; in imagining how this could go. You're going to get to know the Vincent's Club people, I'm sure, very, very well while you're there — and that whole community of people. The Vincent's Club is basically a varsity sports club that you have to be invited into. Generally, they want you to have had some international level of success in your own country, and then come to Vincent's, participate in an Oxford Blues level sport, and contribute on a significant level. That's the rough version of what they're looking for when they invite people into Vincent's.
Now, I believe you're automatically in Vincent's by having played D1 football for Harvard, contributed in the ways you did there, and now getting into Oxford and playing for the Oxford American football team. I think all of that is, like, a rubber stamp for Vincent's Club. But yeah. Stewart has played just an intricate role in all of this growth of everything. And I think you're going to have an absolute blast playing. So, historically, you're a defensive player.
Micaiah: Yes. Yeah, I played DN in high school; played DN, and a little bit of outside linebacker in college. So that's all I've known.
Ryan: And even in high school, you didn't play any offense?
Micaiah: No. I was listed as a tight end, but no; we had 100 people on our football team, so there was plenty of depth at every position.
Ryan: How many guys went on and played D1 out of Harrison?
Micaiah: In my year? I want to say there was about, maybe, 11.
Ryan: It's incredible.
Micaiah: It was a crazy year that year, yeah.
Ryan: So, the kind of depth where you didn’t get to play both ways. So, when was the last time — what age was the last time you got to touch the football on offense?
Micaiah: Zero. I never touched the ball.
Ryan: Never? Your entire football career? How are your hands? Do we need to go out and play? Start playing catch?
Micaiah: Yeah, actually, me and my brother are going to. I'll be working with the DB. He'll get me right.
Ryan: He will get you right. So, how’s your confidence in carrying the ball? Because I think you're going to get it; if you want, you're going to get to play tailback, probably, or tight end slot. So I think you’ll get to catch the ball; run the ball. How are you conceptualizing that?
Micaiah: I think it'll be fun. I actually have zero worries about doing it. I think it’s gonna be really fun. I’ve seen people carry the ball enough to just reenact that. I just don't really see myself fumbling every play. So, I'm saying that now. I believe it, too. So I think it'll be good. It'll be fine.
Ryan: But when you were growing up playing football, how much did you guys go out and play catch, with your dad or your brother? Or, I mean, how much are your hands developed?
Micaiah: I think they're developed enough. I mean, I'm not like a D1 receiver, but at the same time, I played a little bit of catch with my brother growing up. My dad actually had a sickness during my young age, for a lot of the years where we would probably end up throwing the football. So I didn't get to do that, but I just did other things. It was all cool. But, long story short, I think what will help is that I have great footwork. And it's funny: I took this P.E. class in high school that I hated. It was the worst thing ever. All we did were footwork drills for, like, an hour and 15 minutes. Just footwork ladders. That's it. This is before I started playing football. It made my feet so good. I think that's probably why I was able to excel so quickly in picking up football as a sport. But feet aren’t hands.
I think it'll be fine. I've seen the way they throw. It's not like I'll be getting thrown to by Patrick Mahomes — like, a ball at 100 miles an hour. But I think it'll be good.
Ryan: And no John Elway crosses on your chest.
Micaiah: Yeah, no.
Ryan: The Elway cross. Alright. Are you starting to think about packing? How practical are you getting around? Like, what to take, and knowing what to take.
Micaiah: I haven’t even started that — because I took so much stuff to Harvard, so much that we had to ship most of it back home. Couldn't even fit in the car. But, this go-around, it's not feasible to ship all that stuff overseas. So I'm doing two suitcases; maybe three, like a small third one. But two big suitcases filled with everything. All my clothes; all my appliances that I need; all my shoes. I think I could probably fit it. I'll go more minimalist.
Ryan: I think you’ve got it.
Micaiah: Which I've never really done before, but I'll figure it out.
Ryan: Remember, everything's smaller there, too.
Micaiah: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Ryan: Spaces are smaller; bathrooms are smaller.
Micaiah: Food portions.
Ryan: Portions are smaller. The food's gotten a lot better. I was there in the 90s; like, mid-90s. And the international food is so much better than it was when I was there. Alright — what else? We're going to wrap this up, but what other things are you imagining or thinking about, heading into this?
Micaiah: There's a few things. So, I'm really excited for — you know, we just talked about theology for however long we talked about it. And it's one of those things that I could talk about for way more hours. And I hear that Oxford has things like the original King James; one of the copies. Or, I guess, if it's the original, it's not really a copy. But also a lot of other theological works and things that just aren't released to the public. So I'm excited to go read those things.
On top of that, there's also traveling. I’ve already planned some trips for that winter at the end of the first term, in which I'll be traveling around. I really want to get over to Rome — see Rome, and all the ruins there. I think that'll be fun.
And then my podcast, as I've been doing; I'm excited to continue that. I've heard that the professors would be really willing to do that at Oxford and come on the podcast. So, that's exciting. And then, just learning. I love learning. I never stopped. So it’s like I’m going to Candyland, like I'm a little kid. It’ll be fun.
Ryan: It is an incredible center of learning. Are you going to take podcasting gear?
Micaiah: The only gear that I really have or need are microphones like this. It’s an Amazon mic, and it does the job for me.
Ryan: It does the job.
Micaiah: Probably one of these to hook on to a table of some sort. I might buy a second mic. And then, I use my phone to record the video. Then I send it to a guy who overlaps the audio with the video; he cuts it up into reels for Instagram, and I think we’ll make do with that.
Ryan: I love it; it’s awesome. Well, Micaiah, I'm very excited for you. It's going to be a transformative year, and you're in my thoughts as you head over. I'm excited to see what happens.
Micaiah: Thank you. I appreciate it.
Ryan: All right. That's it for this podcast; on to the next. Good luck to Micaiah — I’ll be thinking about him.
Micaiah: Thanks for having me.
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